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Featured Comment
"I have been married for twenty years to a man who lies, shows no emotion, had no interest in his children etc. I knew something was very wrong with him but could not put my finger on it, or knew there was a name for it. I found out he has been having sex with prostitutes and a lot of them for most if not all of our marriage. He is a Sociopath. He feels nothing for no one, is selfish, and could care less who he hurts.
"If you meet a man and he gives you clues that he might be a sociopath, run. Run like you have never run before; run like the wind and don't look back."
- April 9, 2011 2:52 AM
"If you meet a man and he gives you clues that he might be a sociopath, run. Run like you have never run before; run like the wind and don't look back."
- April 9, 2011 2:52 AM
Recommended Books:
Help For People Who Have Survived a Sociopath:
A psychotherapist who works with people surviving sociopaths has groups and individual sessions available most of the time. If her schedule is full, she will put you on a waiting list.
She was once married to a sociopath and, like so many others, had no idea until the bottom fell out of her life! She is now dedicated to supporting others who are going through this horrific experience. Email me if you have any questions for her. She would be happy to discuss anything regarding her practice or her experience.
She charges a fee, of course, but your insurance may cover it.
She was once married to a sociopath and, like so many others, had no idea until the bottom fell out of her life! She is now dedicated to supporting others who are going through this horrific experience. Email me if you have any questions for her. She would be happy to discuss anything regarding her practice or her experience.
She charges a fee, of course, but your insurance may cover it.
Support Groups:
Order of Protection Survivor:
A woman shares her story of living through the nightmare of having to file an Order of Protection against her husband while providing helpful resources for other women going through a similar scary situation: Order of Protection Survivor
Domestic Abuse Help:
If you are a victim of domestic abuse, find out what your options are.
Use this to find a local shelter in your area: United States DV Resources
Also, here's the National Domestic Violence Hotline: 1-800-799-7233
Use this to find a local shelter in your area: United States DV Resources
Also, here's the National Domestic Violence Hotline: 1-800-799-7233
Interview with Martha Stout
" . . . understanding this problem [sociopathy] creates an entire paradigm shift in the way we view human nature." - Dr. Martha Stout
Dr. Martha Stout
82 Marlborough Street
Boston, MA 02116 USA
On LivingHero.com is an interview with Dr. Martha Stout, clinical psychologist and bestselling, award-winning author on the subject of sociopathy.
For twenty-six years, she served as a Psychology Instructor in the Department of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School and also taught at the Massachusetts School of Professional Psychology, Wellesley College, The New School for Social Research, and the National Institute of Mental Health. Dr. Stout has worked at Massachusetts General Hospital and McLean Psychiatric Hospital.
She is author of The Sociopath Next Door: The Ruthless Versus the Rest of Us, a National Bestseller and winner of a Books for a Better Life Award.
You may download the mp3 file for free, which will play in iTunes, RealPlayer, Windows Media Player and other media players or you may listen to it right here by clicking on the purple media player below. (The interview is about 30 minutes long.)
You can contact Martha Stout here:Dr. Martha Stout
82 Marlborough Street
Boston, MA 02116 USA
Psychopathy Awareness
An informative blog: Psychopathy Awareness.
Post Comments
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And make sure you subscribe to the comments so you know when someone answers you (you'll see a little box to click when you leave your comment).
And make sure you subscribe to the comments so you know when someone answers you (you'll see a little box to click when you leave your comment).
| + | What is a Psychopath? | |
| | This link goes to an answer from a psychopath research organization. And the link below goes to a discussion forum by the same organization. | |
| + | Topics include: Psychopath in your life | |
| | Parents - Children | |
| + | Psychopath in the Family | |
| | Parents - Siblings |
Save the World
Martha Stout said if more people knew about sociopaths there would be less war in the world. I think she's right. Consider these facts:
1. According to the famous Milgram experiments, 65 percent of people will follow the orders of an authority.
2. Sociopaths want to win. They seek control. They are excellent manipulators. They don't care who gets hurt. They don't care who lives or dies.
3. They sometimes make it to positions of power. And they cause wars.
If more people knew the characteristics of a sociopath, more people would identify them for what they are before they gain too much authority and power. A sociopath would then be less likely to ever gain significantly powerful positions.
Result: Fewer wars.
There would be less horror in the world.
The truth is, even though it is a common belief that "man is a violent species," we are not. But when a sociopath gains a position of supreme authority and they start wars, 65 percent will obey authority, and most of the rest will be fooled and manipulated into believing in supporting the cause. The result is war. And many of those who fight in them feel terrible about the whole thing. They don't want to kill. They feel they have to.
The reason sociopaths are able to get away with as much as they do is because most people are so ignorant about the topic.
Now listen: You are in a unique position to save the world. Not very many people know about such a thing as "common, everyday sociopaths." They don't know their characteristics. They don't know how to spot them.
But you do.
Share your knowledge. Share it far and wide and in every way you can. And urge everyone you know to help you spread the knowledge. This could change the course of history. It could go a long way toward real peace on earth.
1. According to the famous Milgram experiments, 65 percent of people will follow the orders of an authority.
2. Sociopaths want to win. They seek control. They are excellent manipulators. They don't care who gets hurt. They don't care who lives or dies.
3. They sometimes make it to positions of power. And they cause wars.
If more people knew the characteristics of a sociopath, more people would identify them for what they are before they gain too much authority and power. A sociopath would then be less likely to ever gain significantly powerful positions.
Result: Fewer wars.
There would be less horror in the world.
The truth is, even though it is a common belief that "man is a violent species," we are not. But when a sociopath gains a position of supreme authority and they start wars, 65 percent will obey authority, and most of the rest will be fooled and manipulated into believing in supporting the cause. The result is war. And many of those who fight in them feel terrible about the whole thing. They don't want to kill. They feel they have to.
The reason sociopaths are able to get away with as much as they do is because most people are so ignorant about the topic.
Now listen: You are in a unique position to save the world. Not very many people know about such a thing as "common, everyday sociopaths." They don't know their characteristics. They don't know how to spot them.
But you do.
Share your knowledge. Share it far and wide and in every way you can. And urge everyone you know to help you spread the knowledge. This could change the course of history. It could go a long way toward real peace on earth.
WikiHow on Sociopathy
WikiHow has several articles on sociopaths:
How to Deal With a Sociopath
How to Detect a Sociopath
How to Understand Sociopaths
How to Deal With a Sociopath
How to Detect a Sociopath
How to Understand Sociopaths
Scientific American Mind
In the September/October 2010 issue of Scientific American Mind is an article entitled, Inside the Mind of a Psychopath. Among other things, the reseachers wrote, "Aided by EEGs and brain scans, scientists have discovered that psychopaths possess significant impairments that affect their ability to feel emotions, read other people's cues and learn from their mistakes.
These deficiencies my be apparent in children who are as young as five years old.
When you tally trials, prison stays and inflicted damage, psychopaths cost us $250 billion to $400 billion a year.
The reseachers wrote:
Charming as they may seem, psychopaths can also be tone-deaf because they lack access to their own feelings and those of others. Imagine what it would be like never to be depressed or anxious, never to have regrets or low self-esteem but also never to care deeply for anyone or anything. Psychopaths' emotions are shallow: they feel irritated when they don't get their way and turn to risky behaviors for the flimsiest of reasons. Bereft of loyalties and passions, they wander through life, often straying into criminality on a whim — forgeries, thefts, assaults, even murders may be committed out of some trivial impulse. As for complex emotions such as devotion, guilt, or joy, theirs remains a textbook understanding — it has been said that they "know the words but not the music."
Dozens of studies reveal that psychopaths experience the world differently from other people. They have trouble making appropriate moral value judgments and putting the brakes on their impulses. They are also hampered in how they respond to emotions, language and distractions — a disconnect that is sometimes seen as early as age five.
Psychopaths are notable for their fearlessness: when confronted with images such as a looming attacker or a weapon aimed their way, they literally don't blink.
Chances are, you have met a psychopath. People with the disorder make up 0.5 to 1 percent of the general population. When you discount children, women (for reasons that remain a puzzle, few women are afflicted), and those who are already locked up, that translates to approximately 250,000 psychopaths living freely in the U.S.
Some researchers have estimated that as many as 500,000 psychopaths inhabit the U.S. prison system, and there may be another 250,000 more living freely — perhaps not committing serious crimes but still taking advantage of those around them.
Whatever the reasons, many psychiatrists are left with the false impression that psychopathy and antisocial personality disorder are the same. They are not. Antisocial personality disorder is a helpful diagnosis when the question is whether a person is likely to behave badly, but it does nothing to discriminate among criminals. Only one in five people with antisocial personality disorder is a psychopath.
The above was written by Kent A. Kiehl, a neuroscientist at the University of New Mexico, and Joshua W. Buckholtz, a PhD candidate in neuroscience at Vanderbilt University.
Contact them here:
Kent A. Kiehl
kkiehl@unm.edu
Joshua W. Buckholtz
joshua.buckholtz@vanderbilt.edu
These deficiencies my be apparent in children who are as young as five years old.
When you tally trials, prison stays and inflicted damage, psychopaths cost us $250 billion to $400 billion a year.
The reseachers wrote:
Charming as they may seem, psychopaths can also be tone-deaf because they lack access to their own feelings and those of others. Imagine what it would be like never to be depressed or anxious, never to have regrets or low self-esteem but also never to care deeply for anyone or anything. Psychopaths' emotions are shallow: they feel irritated when they don't get their way and turn to risky behaviors for the flimsiest of reasons. Bereft of loyalties and passions, they wander through life, often straying into criminality on a whim — forgeries, thefts, assaults, even murders may be committed out of some trivial impulse. As for complex emotions such as devotion, guilt, or joy, theirs remains a textbook understanding — it has been said that they "know the words but not the music."
Dozens of studies reveal that psychopaths experience the world differently from other people. They have trouble making appropriate moral value judgments and putting the brakes on their impulses. They are also hampered in how they respond to emotions, language and distractions — a disconnect that is sometimes seen as early as age five.
Psychopaths are notable for their fearlessness: when confronted with images such as a looming attacker or a weapon aimed their way, they literally don't blink.
Chances are, you have met a psychopath. People with the disorder make up 0.5 to 1 percent of the general population. When you discount children, women (for reasons that remain a puzzle, few women are afflicted), and those who are already locked up, that translates to approximately 250,000 psychopaths living freely in the U.S.
Some researchers have estimated that as many as 500,000 psychopaths inhabit the U.S. prison system, and there may be another 250,000 more living freely — perhaps not committing serious crimes but still taking advantage of those around them.
Whatever the reasons, many psychiatrists are left with the false impression that psychopathy and antisocial personality disorder are the same. They are not. Antisocial personality disorder is a helpful diagnosis when the question is whether a person is likely to behave badly, but it does nothing to discriminate among criminals. Only one in five people with antisocial personality disorder is a psychopath.
The above was written by Kent A. Kiehl, a neuroscientist at the University of New Mexico, and Joshua W. Buckholtz, a PhD candidate in neuroscience at Vanderbilt University.
Contact them here:
Kent A. Kiehl
kkiehl@unm.edu
Joshua W. Buckholtz
joshua.buckholtz@vanderbilt.edu
A Clarification on a Common Belief
"Man's inhumanity to man" should be changed to, "Sociopath's inhumanity to normal humans." It doesn't have the same poetic feeling, but it is more accurate.
Contact Me
Email me here: rising.up@gmail.com
2,336 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 600 of 2336 Newer› Newest»Alley you most certainly can seek some help! I don't know who has labeled you a sociopath yourself or others but you certainly don't fit the criteria at all. As others have mentioned this is a GOOD thing. You do sound very young to me and this means that you really need to INSIST on getting therapy. Many times if you are not properly insured or such, help doesn't seem possible but it IS out there you just must go to the right places and be persistent.
If you are in as much pain as you sound like your in the sooner you might find relief the better so please do get your phone book and call everything you see in there regarding mental health until you get an appointment.
You are not CRAZY!!! Trust me crazy people don't admit that they are. If you have never treated yourself to get what you deserve in life (to feel better) do it this time. If you are young it is likely even a better outcome as you haven't shut down as many people have when they feel that their illness is untreatable.
(HIM)The complexity of the nature/nurture issue of a sociopath is still something I don't think even the "experts" all agree upon. It is my understanding that much of the earliest research done on sociopaths was done in prisons. It would stand to reason that this would lead to certain determining factors of how someone might display sociopathic tendancys. And if other studies were done on sociopaths living in society as "functioning" citizens another conclusion might be detrmined. It does makes sense that the brain does not develop properly at some point as a sociopath matures. When you watch a two year old baby closely their brain does not seem to yet register that anything else exist other than their "own" needs. So it seems that we all "start out" life without these feelings of empathy early on in our lives. As a child grows so does the capacity of the brain and its "normal" functioning.
The explanation of being born a sociopath I guess is somewhat easier to understand because people are born with autism, and many other brain disorders, etc. that can't be reversed. The "nurture" explanation of sociopaths is much more complex. Because many of us put up "walls" in our lifetimes to avoid being hurt or to "avoid" feeling the pain of the "trama" we might have experienced. Once that wall would come down (through therapy, medications etc ) we would once again experience FEELINGS. It would seem that for the sociopath that would be the nurture variety vs the nature, those feelings would be turned off at some point during the maturing years of developement? And I don't understand how that would be irreversable? Turning off your feelings/putting up a wall and not HAVING the feelings there to begin with are two completely different things. A person born mentally retarded doesn't have the brain capacity to function past a certain point. So if a sociopath was born without the capacity to feel empathy/emotions and the brain growth was stunted early on to NEVER feel normal emotions that is one thing. However if this isn't the case with all sociopaths and some develop this because of "nurture" or disfunction in how they were raised that seems like it should be a treatable illness? The brain is very powerful and complex. Much of what we learn or how we were treated in life, especially during our youth is often repeated. EVEN when we DON'T want to repeat it, as learned behaviour from childhood it is often repeated in adulthood. Such as child abuse, domestic abuse etc. These cycles often continue. And can often only be broken When someone goes in for help.
No one can really get "help" if they are not receptive to it. So is being a nurture/sociopath really an untreatable condition (as believed by experts) or would it seem untreatable because the sociopath is content to be who they are and are unreceptive to change and therapy? Eric what do you think?
I have a former business partner that I feel strongly matches the descriptions given. Now he is holding significant funds that represent my entire retirement fund. To avoid a legal battle I probably can't win against him - are their recommendations / strategies for how to communicate with him and get him to see giving me the money as self serving somehow - or that he wins something by doing so? I am posting anonymously because I'm not sure how to do it any other way - but my email is olbiz@aol.com. Thanks, Charlie
(ME) HIM those are good points... the last question you asked is very thought-provoking... I think there are some "normal" people who are born (nature) with a low capacity for empathy (think about all the jerks you know that aren't sociopaths) and then sometime happens to them in childhood (nurture) that turns off what little empathy they might have had... if they hadn't had their dad leave, or abuse, or no love, etc... and had a "great" home life they might not have become an SP... they may still not have had too many emotions or seem to "care" about anybody but they would be ABLE to... they would just be assholes or maybe narcissists, etc...
So I think maybe it is a little of both nature and nurture... the SP I know had a dad that was a jerk and a little abusive and then left at a young age... but had a loving mother and his mother and sibling are still in his life... he has a "good" relationship with them... albiet it is for self-serving purposes as he lives with his mother... he has never lived on his own... always with a girlfriend or family... he would never be able to hold a job long enough or be responsible enough to have his own place... his sociopathic behavior started around middle school... probably earlier but I know he went to "alternative" schools because he had a problem with authority and rules at a young age... but he is very charming and has adapted quite well with society nowdays... but only because he does not want to go to jail...
Also, because my ex does seem to want love... but not the way we feel love... he does not want to fall "in love"... because that would be give and take... and he only takes... he does however crave for someone to love him... but only on his terms... only want to hang out when he feels like it or if there is an alterior motive... if he needs something or if he is bored... (not nessesarily for sex oddly enough) when he was younger he was all about getting into girls pants but as he got older I think it is more about a girl falling for him and then controling their emotions... it is too easy for him to get sex from a girl and that is no longer as fun for him... he wants a girl to fall in love with him... but he does not give love back... only enjoys messing with your head and emotions out of boredom... plus he likes having someone who "worships" him to hang out with when he is bored...
Anyway, I what a good question (HIM)... I am curious about what Eric thinks on the matter...
(HIM) Thanks (ME) for your input. Yes the world is full of jerks/assholes who appear to be self serving when in a man/woman relationship. However the difference with the jerks and the sociopaths in this world (AND I am still learning all of this)seems to be in the capacity of what they are capable of. In other words as I see it there are some men that make HORRIBLE husbands/lovers (self serving, don't get the give/take concept of relationships etc) and yet can be wonderful fathers. I would tend to believe that this is because they have the ABILITY to love/feel emotions with whom they choose to "let in". I am learning as I do research and read these postings, that a sociopath does not have the ability to feel such emotions.
They are able to mimic them but not FEEL them. The ability to mimic them at the capacity that many sociopaths display seem to indicate that they can become VERY good at their game. It isn't done because they are trying or wanting to "love" you but rather because they NEED something from you. There always seems to be an ulterior motive. Long term or short term the "motive" still seems to exist.
I have to imagine that if I was in an "adult" relationship with a sociopath that I would not be so concerned with the hows and whys of how he got this way. (ALTHOUGH I am a THINKER & might be anyways) I would tend to think that I would have to focus more on how to remove myself from a dangerous situation judging by many of the postings I have read. The survival instinct would kick in so to speak. However I am dealing with a son and although he is not old enough to be diagnosed with sociopath tendancies and does NOT fit into all of the "criteria" I have read about he does present some scarey similarities. And he is at the age where I seem to read alot of this starts to "present itself" with anti social personality disorders. So although I have myself convinced that he is to young to be considered/labeled a sociopath, I seem to constantly NEED more information to confirm that he is not on the road leading to.....Genetically, my sons father is dead and his father was adopted. So much of his family history is not known. My sons father was the love of my life. However I was only with him for a couple of years. And half of that time he was battling addictions. So many of the "issues" I saw within him or within our realtionship I identified with the alcohol/drug issue. Not a personality disorder/mental illness/???......I DO know that his upbringing by his adoptive parents was very, very disfunctional. I do know that his life was troubled by his choice to end it. That alone speaks volumes.
Had he had more time on this earth it is possible that I might have come to know another side of him? This is something that I will never know hence my curious side NEEDS to know what I can learn about this disorder. People reveal in these postings that the signs seem to present themselves during puberty. And so this is something I am trying to understand. My sons doctor has NEVER even mentioned the fact of Post Tramatic disorder being the focus. And I can't seem to understand that either? So I feel at this point the more I learn hopefully the more empowered I can feel at some point to understand what REALLY IS going on with my son and be his advocate when it comes to these proffesionals that are suppose to be treating him?
(HIM) Another question or speculation to a point that ME brought to my attention. You had mentioned that the sociopath in your life has maintained a relationship with his mother. Again not for her benifit, but rather for his own. A place to LIVE I presume? It does sound like possibly she might have a relationship with him that could be considered, oh what is the word.....? Brain freeze, grrr.....Not when someone is dependent on someone else but when they allow them to continue to be "sick" because they kind of feed into the sickness by being______ themselves. I am sorry but I just can't think of the word I want to use.
what appears to you as him craving love might not actually be him craving love at all. Maybe more of a case of him just wanting his "needs" met and fufilled and this is how he knows to get them fufilled is finding that person to love him and then in TURN he DOES get those needs met? So in fact it really isn't REALLY the LOVE he desires it is just the wanting to have his needs met. If someone "loves" him they would be easier to manipulate to get what he really wants than a person who would be indifferent to making HIM happy.
(HIM) Sorry the word I was trying to think of was ENABELER. I am unsure how enabeling works when it comes to sociopah personalitys? However I do know it is harmful on other grown "adult" children of parents who constantly and consistently "bail out" the alcoholic/addict/law breaker ect.....Parents often take the "rapp" for enabeling but anyone can enabel. I suppose parents often get labeled as the enabeler because many times it starts early on. The teenagers first offence, the alcoholics first DUI.....But anyone can fill in that "position" once the parent would vacate it.(if they ever do) Sibling, wife, girlfriend etc. Do you suppose the sociopath personality looks for enabeler type personalitys? To put a roof over their heads, pay bills, borrow money, the list could go on and on? I do believe that the sociopath makes an excellent PROFILER (from what Eric has said)
So what that says to me is that the sociopath is very AWARE of the kind of person he has chosen to be involved with. A carefully chosen selection not a random one.
I am currently in a "war" with someone who I have just discovered could be a sociopath. He was a work colleague. He is descibed by most who meet him as a "nice guy", but almost "non-descript".
Looking back I should have seen the signs. He was quiet but quick to find and seek out enemies. Late night telephone threats to those who disagreed, police raids on people's houses...
I thought he was a friend however, when I disagreed with him on a particular issue, he has now sought me out.
I am aware that he was beaten by his father. I have seen him be abusive to animals, he never forgets a past enemy and now he is trying to destroy my life. He is making unimaginable threats against myself and my child.
I am a smart well connected person and have begun to expose this person to other people.
I am actually a great reader of people and only now I have picked this up. I can usually sum someone up in 5 - 15 mins. His anger is always present but in a controlled way, when it is released it is like watching a soap opera, very dramatic but not quite convincing.
I have become concerned for my safety recently, particularly because during this process I have gained the upper hand by exposing him. I know this person, I have never seen him hurt anyone physically but I have seen him hold a grudge. If I hurt him professionally (which through is his recent threats I can do) will he hurt me physically?
(ME) To HIM... I did not mean to imply if I did that I think it is actual love that my ex craved... You are correct that he wants someone to love him to get his "needs" met... or so he can feel powerful over them (in a inconsipicous way) and also out of boredom he likes to have drama in his life with someone...
in regaurds to his mother (and a female friend) that he keeps being enablers... I suppose you could call them that... although they don't realize that he is an SP... but certainly that help meet his needs... he lives at home and is in his thirties, people in his home cook for him, and allow him to continue without a job... he will give you the laid-off pity answer about the job though... but he is content not to work... his uses his friend for her money... paying for meals and use of her nice things... he is a father and although I thought he was loving... in retrospect, he does as little as he has to do to appear to be a good father... (for instance, he would never look at his sleeping child and think "awwww I love that child") and he is always asking for pity because his ex is crazy or whatever... I now know she is not crazy or a bad mother... she had every right to be mad at him because he is always "dropping the ball" on his responsibilites...
his mother is a great woman but just seems exhausted from years of dealing with her son... but she LOVES him and will continue to "enable" forever I presume... he is not phsyically dangerous so I guess she just puts up with it... (he does like to get in physical fights with other men though but as he gets older is more "mellow" and controled as he doesn't want to end up in trouble with the law)... everything Eric says sounds just like him... when he was your sons age he would have just been a dick to someone that pissed him off and was unable to control his anger... he still is not the best at it and just choses to avoid situations where an altracation might happen...
I am sorry that you are dealing with all of this because I know you love your son... I would talk to all kinds of therapists and maybe find a specialist in PTSD... because if he is not a true sociopath... he can be helped and the earlier the better...
and it is out of being a "thinker" that I am curious of the whys and hows of sociopaths... I have no contact with my ex anymore even after his still randomly trying to contact me...
(Eric) (HIM) It is very hard to say whether sociopathy is treatable because in my opinion there are varying degrees of these tendencies and there are also several specifics to each person that could alter the validity of medications, therapy etc. I would classifiy nurture sociopaths and nature sociopaths in two separate categories. Although they both may have a narcissitic personality or intense paranoia, I believe that the nurture sociopath has an overwhelming need for revenge that cannot be satisfied. These sociopaths release their anger onto others as a transferrence from who their anger is really directed towards, e.g. mother, father etc. I believe that these types of sociopaths can be treated and possibily cured, but in my opinion it would be very unlikely for 2 reasons. 1) The primary anger would need to be let go, ergo issues with the abuser must be settled however the abuser is likely to have an abuser and the pattern would conitune making it nearly impossible to move on. 2) The abused, now abuser would most likely reject help. The nature sided sociopath, in my opinion is beyond treatment at this point in time. We do not yet have the technology or understanding of the human mind to know the causes or how it can be treated. That being said it is possible that the once the nurtured sociopath crosses that bridge from sanity, to sociopath sanity they may never be able to cross back. For a sociopath to ever be cured, their unique overwhelming need, whether it be control, suffering, ego inflation, group appraisial etc, would have to ultimately vanish. For those of you who did not understand that I mean to say, for a sociopath to be cured their constant need/desire must not be fed but instead, must disappear.
(Eric) (HIM) You have had some good observations about sociopaths. Sociopaths seem to have a high innate understanding of others and their feelings, even though they may not personally experience them. I believe the identity of a sociopath becomes more present during puberty becuase it is around this time people are deciding what to do in life. It is here a sociopath must face the truth of their identity and realize what careers are legitimately possible. They are also having to deal with understanding themselves and realizing that they are different, this usually begins a sequence of delinquent acts. The question is, does the sociopath realize who they are and choose to pursue such a lifestyle or are their actions a result of uncontrollable desires? Anyway, to the person wondering about if the sociopath will physically hurt them, I would say it is unlikely. He is most likely intelligent and aware of the consequences of fulfilling his desire to hurt you. That being said, I can read an arrogance in your post, you think you are more intelligent than you really are. My guess is you rarely take blame for any of your faults but instead pass it along to those you deem less intelligent, a.k.a. people you think you are better than. Here you are boasting to people who have been traumatized by sociopaths that you have beaten one but worry if he will physically beat you. Are you really that arrogant and self-centered? If you are so intelligent to have outwitted the sociopath then why are you asking us for help? Many of the people on this forum cry themselves to sleep thinking of the pain a sociopath has caused them, and here you are sitting in the hot seat thinking you are the Queen, oblivious to the fact you are about to be served up. Sociopaths target those that share their qualities but are weak on the inside, and you are a target. Tough exterior, intelligence, narcissistic, self-appraisial... If saints are servants of God and sociopaths are servants of Satan, then why do you want to dance with the devil, so to speak?
I would say it is a bad idea to purposely try and screw people over, and an idiotic idea to try and hurt a sociopath. Sociopaths have an endless need to win, will you still have your guard up and be playing offensively until the game is over?
(HIM)(ERIC)You do have a way of presenting things that makes it easier to understand.
It is said to the newly ariving alcoholic at AA meetings that alcoholism is a cunning & baffling disease. I would have to say the same could be said about the sociopath.
You said quite awile back in a posting that your thoughts of hurting people had increased since high school. Do you believe that much of sociopathic behaviour is like an addiction? In other words your brain chemicals release & react just like when a drug addict is "feeding" his addiction? When you said that you had never had remorse when you hurt someone but wished that you would have taken them down another couple of notches. That is what made me think of the brain/addictions thing.
When a drug addict is doing "their thing" the first thing they want is MORE. There is never enough drugs to satisfy, always craving more. Could that be similar to the sociopaths quest for targeting people?
I guess this is where we go back to the brain being so complex. Generally speaking every addict, every depressed person, every alcoholic, domestic abuser, child abuser, etc, etc.....There is a CORE Reason to their addiction/behaviour. Most alcoholics/drug addicts fail miserably their first several times of trying to get sober. Much of the reason is because they are treating the outer symptoms of the disease rather than the inner. The inner pain in all of us is part of our complex make up of both who we are and who we are NOT.
I grew up with an alcoholic father. I swore up and DOWN I would never cross that line. When I was younger and at parties I would "pretend" to drink my drink after I had one or two. I was that afraid of "turning into" my father. so I never became the alcoholic I married one. go figure?? So the cycle continued...
I don't believe that any of us can heal or change or break the cycles of any of this without going to the core.
The fact that a sociopath is such a good profiler of people is really again a testimony to how complex the brain really is. HOW does the sociopath profile us so well when most of these feelings are foreign to them? How do they know us so well when we can never really know them so well?
THINK about it people....We ask Eric all the questions....We can NOT possibly really wrap our brain around how it really is to not have a conscience, or guilt, NOT to be able to feel love?
From the first few comments I am convinced that my daughter is a sociopath in the first degree. I will begin to prepare myself to be numb since there is no cure for her. I am saddened for my grandson who is already looking at be emancipated if he screws up in any way or form.
I really liked this article. I have a sister who is impossible to deal with. I've blamed myself, tried to make it work, we even went to counselling together but nothing improved. My boyfriend at the time that I was trying to relate to her said her insides were like a "vault". And I had always felt that she was unusually cold and manipulative. I let her hurt me and put me down for years and years and finally, I basically cut her off. I immediately felt better. And then I started to think jokingly that she was a sociopath without really knowing exactly what it meant. Her traits are very intelligent, talented, wanting win, wanting to basically destroy the competion and being seemingly without emotion (except anger). She lies all the time about all kinds of things, very important, serious things that hurt other people and then shows no remorse over how she has hurt and affected others. Her emotions all seem fake to me. Except anger. Once, when I was in my early twenties and so was she, I was trying to talk to her about her lack of affection and interest in me and I also brought up that I had never seen her cry in my life which was true. She immediately, within like 2 seconds, started crying. It was one of the creepiest things I had ever seen. She's also lied in viscious ways just to hurt me and seems to take absolute enourmous pleasure in controlling and trying to demean me while at the same time hiding it all from the "outside world". She has caused enourmous damage to me in many ways. It's true, what the article said, that there's nothing you can do to change this kind of person. They will drive you absolutely nuts and can cause great harm. Like I said, I worked on it for over a decade and not a goddamn inch did she give. I always felt, when we were together, that I needed a lawyer present for any interaction with her. She intellectualized everything (because she didn't seem to have any emotions) and then twisted everything all around in such strange, strange ways. Anyway, I did see a lot of her in this article and it made me feel better, like it wasn't so much "my fault" that I had to get away from her. Now she tries to contact me and twists it around like I'm the one who isn't friendly or trying to relate to her when she made it impossible for me to do so. She is doing this so that the family will think that I am a difficult, cold person. It's really outrageous. I guess she has found a way in the end to get to me afterall but, I do feel overall, I'm better off being completely disconnected from her. How I just wanted a regular, nice, affectionate sister.
(ME) To the above post... from what I have experienced... your sister sounds like a classic sociopath... and don't feel bad for cutting her out... it is the only way you can have any peace in your life... they are very good at what they do... I'm assuming your parents don't know that you have "figured" her out... How do they feel about her? Has she caused upset in their lives as well? What was it like in your home growing up, the nature vs. nurture question? And what is her career or job now? Boyfriend, married, children?
I'm just curious because she does sound exactly like the type of sociopath, my ex, that I dealt with... and I just find this all so sad and interesting at the same time...
Your comments have been very helpful. I suppose the questions, and please excuse if they have already been asked, that I have for better understanding of Sociopath are the following:
1. If an empathetic individual who is fearful/hopeful of consequences of their actions would plan their lives accordingly over different horizons (5y, 10y, 20y, or at least when I grow old)... What is the analog for a sociopath?
2. With incessant cheating, broken relationships, what ultimately does a Sociopath wish to gain over these years or future? Even if marriage is a possibility, is divorce not something feared by a Sociopath?
3. If and with the special talent of having piercing insight into human emotions for which a Sociopath can enjoy their power over them to have them suffer and thrown into despair etc., would he/she not have the same enjoy of being able to affect humans in the other directions? Is there not a high for a Sociopath who can convincingly help someone to achieve happiness and joy in ways that the 'subject' didn't think was possible?
Thanks.
A sociopath doesn't feel feelings they mimic them. There isn't the empathy or the guilt to be felt after a wrong doing or a harmful action. Sociopaths also don't feel fear the same way you or I might. Maybe fear of getting caught and going to jail, but not fear of getting caught cheating, per say. Maybe fear of loosing a "meal ticket". But not fear of divorce in the sense of loosing someone.
(ME)Good answer in the above post... I am curious to know of how a sociopath see there future... from what I have read and the SP I know... I am aware that they do not like to plan... don't worry about past or future, but only live in the moment... so Eric? How does a sociopath see their future or how do you foresee your own?? 5 years, 10, 20, or 50 years down the road?
To the post above concerning her sister. It is always very sad when you have to cut ties with family members. But don't blame yourself. If she is a true sociopath there is really nothing that you can do for her to make her "better". And if she causes you so much pain and discomfort you are better off breaking the ties. Maybe someday your family will see her side that you have delt with all of your life. A sociopath can be a great actor around people they want to NOT see their true colors. Disconnection with a family member needs closure like the end of any relationship and for your own sake put some closure to it and move on. Good Luck.
This is for Eric. Would you ever manipulate an insecure guy into believing he is gay, then revealing it to everyone. I know someone who did this to my cousin and am just wondering if he's a sociopath.
(ME)... Eric? I was just wondering... what if one of your girl "friends" that you keep... not like dating, but just friends... what if she figured you out? and out of caring or just making it known... (although I realize you can't grasp "caring")... she confronted you in a non-confrontational way that she understood that you had no conscience but was willing to still be your friend... and she wouldn't reveal this to anyone but that she was aware and would not let herself become a victim... you said yourself that there are a few people in your life that you keep around because you simply enjoy there company when you are bored and you don't "target" them per say... what would you do? How would you react if someone confronted you with there revelation? would you still be able to hang out with them? would you get angry? I'm just wondering what it is like for you to be "outed" so to speak? Would it be nice for someone to know the real you and still accept you?
(Eric) I have read that it is common for sociopaths to have a severe lack in planning and this definitely applies to myself. For me, I just live day to day and have always just believed I'll get to where I want when I want. I used to have a general idea that I would go to University, graduate, get my P.hD and then take it from there but I have decided to join the army instead. In 5 years I don't really have an idea of where I'll be, I just know I won't be here. I don't feel the need to plan becuase I know what I enjoy and if I am not enjoying myself I will find something else to do. In 10-20 years, honestly, I see myself either dead, in prison or extremely wealthy. Hmmm, yes I suppose I could see myself doing this (convincing someone they are gay) but it most likely would start as just a form of entertaining myself and then just keeping it going every now and then. I do not think I would put a lot of effort into this becuase it doesn't seem that fun to me and if I was trying to hurt them I would not attack their homosexual curiosity, I would attack the core of their insecurites which would be their self worth. (ME) that is a good question. I do have one person, my closest friend that is a girl and is aware that I am a sociopath. We talked about it a couple times but she does not understand the truth of a sociopath and does not want to know. She cannot grasp the concept of not having a conscience and so she chooses to cast the truth about me out of her thoughts. She has seen how destructive I can be to others but she does not think I would ever attack her. Basically she accepts who I am, but tells herself that I don't like to show my emtoions because of the violent upbringing I had, not becuase I lack them. I do not see her as a threat or as someone who wnats to change me so there is no tension between us, it's like an elephant in the room she chooses to ignore. I have been confronted by others several times but only a couple of them were though out and planned. The majority of people who ask about this are my guy friends who are usually drunk and I have had some very odd questions. I have been asked if I am the devil, if I am a demon, if i have a conscience etc. These people truly believe in what they are asking me but I am never nervous or angered by it becuase none of them are trying to personally attack me. It is the girls that have sat down and thought about my behaviour and decided they were going to bring it up and so, I usually have to deter the situation away. These people have never been worried about their health, they are concerned with my behaviour and fear what I will do to others. So, yes many people have asked about me being a sociopath, but they are not really confronting me, they are usually curious or trying to help. To my friends I am a great friend and because of this my friends are not trying to confront and anger me and those that are not my friends would be too nervous to ever ask me. I am usually asked about this becuase people see me as the devil on the shoulder telling you to do it, at least that is what I have been told. The other thing that triggers the question is when I go after someone (a target) and basically torture them; they cannot believe that I have no stopping point and I have had a lot of comments on the way my eyes look when I am angry and how calm I am at the most tense situations. I don't think anyone will ever know the real me becuase I have no idea who the real me is. After years of manipulation and acting I honestly cannot remember who I am. Most of my childhood is a blur and so it is hard to remember what I was like. Presently I become whoever I want to become, I do whatever I want to get what I want. I do not have a personality, but I also contain every personality. I can fit into any crowd and become what ever type of person I want according to the goal I have set. If I was asked to just be myself, I wouldn't know what to do becuase in every situation I choose how I want people to view me so I don't know what the real me is. Perhaps this is a common trend among sociopaths, sort of like Mr. Ripley, I don't know. The few things I am sure about myself are that I do not have a conscience, and I can mimic the identity of whoever I want. Part of the reason I don't fear my future is becuase I know at any time I can become whoever I want to become, I do not believe I have any limits in life. It's like when you are given the I.Q. test in high school and they tell you that you have the intelligence to become whatever you want. I not only have the intelligence but I also have the ability to become the person I want to be, not just the profession.
(HIM) It is interesting to me Eric that you are choosing to go into the army. The army is a very structured and controlled enviorment. Boot camp is "total" discipline. I am sure that you will encounter very STRONG personalities.
It doesn't seem a likely choice for a sociopath? What is it that you hope to accomplish by joining the army? I would assume being a sociopath that you do not take "well" to authority figures? The army is full of authority figures and you are expected to not only obey commands, but be in compliance to many rules/regulations on a daily basis.
In the army if they can't "make" you they "break" you (so to speak) in the first several weeks. Is this a personal challenge you are taking upon yourself?
(ME) Eric...You have said that you think there is a spectrum when it comes to sociopaths... Where do you see yourself on the spectrum? My ex does not seem to do the "fit" in thing... or I should say the knowing how to change himself... he can act polite and charming and friendly (and really he was that way with me)... but he does not do like The Talented Mr. Ripley or what you are describing you are able to do... he is pretty much "himself" although he did say one time..."you don't even know me"... but then another time "how can you not know me after all the (deep) conversations we've had"... he was pissed at me in the first one and was trying to keep me around in the second... he was always just so hot and cold... very confusing...
Anyway, so do you think there is a wide spectrum or a narrow one? And where do you see yourself on the spectrum? And also I'm curious as well on how you are going to "handle" the army? or I should how are they going to "handle" you?
(Eric) I've always wanted to join the army, since I was very young. I remember playing war games when I was young and thinking that I would like to do this in real life. I've always had an obsession for life and death and I want to put myself in that position, where I will either kill or be killed. To me, war is the ultimate test of my mental and physical toughness, and these are basically the only things I value. I actually believe the army is a normal choice for a sociopath, sociopaths have a desire for control and killing but cannot conquer these in the real world without going to jail; the army is a place where you can kill and get paid for it. By joining the army I hope to prove to myself that I can survive under the most challenging and tense situations that man has ever faced. I look at videos depicting the horrors of war and I smile, this is where i want to be, I believe this is what I am best suited for. I do not fear dying, and I want to have the control over another person's life, the thought of a single movement of my fnger can end someone's life is the ultimate thrill I strive for. I have had countless problems with authority figures but it was usually because I did not respect them; obeying the laws enforced by an old school jock with an I.Q. of 80 is not something I can do. Showing respect to someone who is weak and frail is something I cannot do. The army hierachy is ranked by the respect you have earned and the bravery you have shown on the field. Also, once I am sent overseas to war, I will be told to kill, not raise my hand when I have a question. It will be quite the challenge for the army to break me becuase I have already endured a lifetime of hell and can sit back and laugh at it. I do not believe the army will be able to break me becuase there is nothing they can say or do that will alter my behaviour. I plan to go in, and follow the rules so that I can graduate and be sent to war, remember a sociopath can become whoever they want to become to achieve their personal goal. If I were to allign myself somewhere in the spectrum of a sociopath I would put myself near the top, as one of the most dangerous, not because I am the most physical and scary but becuase I am the most devious, manipulating and easily trusted. People put their lives in my hand becuase they see something in me that is not real and so I am the most dangerous person you can come across; someone you trust with your life but doesn't actually care about your life. In regards to your ex, it verifies my point that my ability to be like the Talented Mr. Ripley makes me a more dangerous person because my true self is never shown and therfore my reactions cannot be forseen. If your ex was a sociopath then it is very likely that you did not know the real him. I have had many girlfriends say to me that they realy get me and it makes me laugh, becuase they do not, although I will not tell them that they are way off. As for your ex being very hot and cold I believe that is common for the average sociopath, they live their lives at extremes avoiding the middle way (buddhist belief) and so they are never at a stable point, they are either very entertained or very agitated. I believe there is an icredibly broad spectrum of sociopaths, although they are always stereotyped into being the same. There are the sociopaths who live their life in isolation because they have a severe intolerance of mankind, those that live their life mimicing other's feelings and being the centre of attention and all those in between. Sociopaths are an incredibly in-depth type of people ranging from quiet, cold and calculated to outgoing, charming and delightful. What they all have in common is a disregard to others well being and the lack of conscience or moral compass to control their actions. They say you will never be shocked by a "bad" person becuase they are always doing bad things, it is the good people that shock you when they do a horrible action; but what about the person who is viewed as a great person but only commits evil actions? That is the sociopath. I see myself as a more devious sociopath on the spectrum because I believe I have a very educated understanding of mankind and becuase of this I remain calm and collected, which makes it impossible for others to read me or forsee my behaviour. I am the "good" person committing evil actions but I keep the "good" appearance because I am able to convince each target and viewer that I am in the right and that they were in the wrong. I manipulate their view of right and wrong so that I always appear to be the rational one and them, the irrational one. As for the army I am not entirely sure how I will behave at the moment, but I certainly do not want a dishonourable discharge. I cannot constantly stay out of line but I also cannot consistently be in line, so I guess the army and myself are going to have quite a challenge in the future.
(HIM) Given this some more thought and I am suspecting that you will encounter many sociopaths within the army. Likely many of them will be higher up in rank. This actually makes sense when you think about it. The army seems like it would be the "ultimate" test/challenge for the intelligent sociopath. I believe intelligence/discipline will come to play in the begining as you would have to get through boot camp before obtaining your goal.
When you started going to school at the university was this something that you were commited to at the time, and really wanted to get a degree or was it expected of you, or?
I am curious about the commitment level of a sociopath. Especially since you said that it was hard to have a 5 year plan etc. Living one day at a time.....In other words do you think you are leaving school because of lack of interest, boredom, better opportunity, or is it just hard to follow through with a couple years of being commited to something such as school, without having, lets say the 5 year plan? If education doesn't equal out to what your destination might be. Education = doctor, lawyer, accountant etc.
Did you do well in high school(grade wise) or was that something you found yourself just getting through to go to the next level?
What are you most proud of Eric? Your biggest achievements to date?
(ME) Oh I know I didn't really know the real person inside my ex... esp before I figured out he is a sociopath... I laughed when you said girlfriends of yours said they felt like they really know you... because I said the same thing and at times felt we had such a deep connecion that he only shared with maybe 2 other people in his life... infact he had told me that I was one of the few people he had ever loved... even if it was just as friends but that he knew I would always be an important part of his life (remember I've known him on and off for over 15 years)... we were kind of more like just friends really... like we had fun hanging out together and it wasn't about sex for him... he didn't really try to have sex with me... but when I said we should just be friends he didn't want that... because he wanted me to want him... now that I know that he is an SP I feel like I know him way better... although he doesn't know that and he never will... I will not ever talk to him again even though he is trying to still be friends...
I do not believe that he is quite the same "type" of sociopath as you... but it could be because he is older... I think it is natural even with ""normal people to think the world is your oster when you are your age...
Eric... I wanted to ask you about drug use... have you ever done coke? and how does this make you feel as far as your sociopathy... because when we were younger I remember him saying he liked it because of all the talking and intellectualizing you do when you are "high" on it... even us "normal" people think everything makes more sense when you are on coke... Is it something you like or have done? I know they say SP's like the drug culture and my ex was into the drug culture... but always so in control... mostly liked to smoke pot... but when all of us were younger we experimented with lots of things as most young adults do... I guess the main thing I have noticed is that he was not as in "control" of hiding his sociopathic ways when he was younger... like everyone just thought he was a punk asshole... now he has mellowed alot... but mostly because he has been to jail a few times and does not like it!
(ME) I really wish there was a way for sociopaths to get help... I really cared about my ex as a person... just as friends really... but I liked and enjoyed him and think it is just a shame... it is truely sad! I feel bad for you (HIM) that this is your son that we are talking about... I hope to God he is not a true sociopath and that it is just PTSD... because it is a sad life they lead... even if they don't realized it... they have no real relationships... be it family, friends, children... what an empty life to look back on in the end... I know that they would never change themselves and are happy with themselves... but it is just sad that they will never experience love... even for their own child... I wish their was something that could change them! (HIM) Get your son as much help as you can right now... because if he is not and SP then it may help before it's too late... and if he is it doesn't matter anyway because nothing will help him... what do you have to lose???
(HIM) Yes (ME) I agree with you. My son has alot of troubling personality traits however he is still to young to determine. So I am trying to live with him like I learned many years ago to live with the alcoholic. That is basically to learn to "seperate" the person from their disease. We tend to take many things personally in our relationships as women, and I had to learn that many of the things the alcoholic did was the disease and not the person. VERY hard thing for me to grasp back then but it finally clicked one day and I was able to understand it. And I am trying to do that now but finding it MUCH harder to do with my son mainly because of the constant lying. Because he is my son I feel like by NOT confronting him constantly about his lies that I am condoning his behaviour. However when I was confronting him ALL the time before ALL of his "disturbing personality traits" where escalating to the point where I felt something really, bad was going to happen. Things just seemed to escalate so quickly and everything seemed very out of control. And because the lies were about everything, both important and not so important things it was never ending.....I decided to pick my battles with the lying. Like you would with any teenager going through regular puberty issues.
He is now on some medication and although I don't see alot of change yet, I do feel maybe that his being on the "edge" has been taken down a notch? If that makes any sense....
I am not very happy about the fact that my choices of doctors are very LIMITED because of crappy insurance. In other words if I had my choice I would take him to the best psyciatrist I could possibly find. Those highly regarded (reputation wise)
doctors that are out there won't touch him. A really good psyciatrist that was recommended to me won't even evaluate him if I paid for the evaluation out of pocket. Because once evaluated if he was diagnosed with something that needed treatment (well duh) they would not be able to just turn their backs on a "sick" patient, and without insurance coverage I wouldn't be able to afford the "long term" treatment. So honestly the way the mental health system works I am pretty screwed. If my son had a rare form of cancer (crappy insurance or no crappy insurance) it would be easier to get him the best treatment available rather than get the same treatment for a mental illness. For instance, I could have taken him to St Judes if he had a rare cancer, and it wouldn't matter if I had money or not. This part of the battle to get just this far with him has been very frustrating.
(Pat)....Eric, i have a question for you about your sexual relationships. Is sex a priority for you or could you live without it? Is it just easier to masterbate than fake feelings and emotions? My ex sp boyfriend of 13 years was a chronic masterbater and seemed way more into that than me. We HAD a good sex life, but fizzled away the last year or so. However masterbating was a big part of his life and would do it multiple times a day since puberty. He is now 36. Is this common with sociopaths?
(ME) I am truely sorry to hear that (HIM) It is sad that if only you had enough money things could be differnt... truely unfair... the lying does worry me because that was the main problem I saw with my ex... like you said about important, but more telling, nonimportant things... and the reaction when you would catch them "red handed"... like it was nothing and the contant manipulation and being made to feel like you are the crazy one... and maybe you are wrong and overreacted... they are really good at what they do... I really don't even know what was true and what wasn't... because you can't tell when he is lying unless you catch him... and then afterward it was like nothing happened... almost like they don't even remember what they did... even now, when trying to contact me... he said that he doesn't know why I won't talk to him because he hasn't done anything to me... WHAT? nothing to me?? I won't get into our final fight but it's like he doesn't even remember it! And certainly doesn't care how he hurt my feelings... cause he doesn't "feel" himself... I used to think it was a wall that needed to come down... but now I know there is NOTHING behind the wall...
(HIM) Yes (ME) I worry about 2 things mostly when it comes to my son. Although there are more than 2 things for sure that concern me overall....The 2 main things put the FEAR in me for sure. The constant and consistant lying just really worries me no end. The fact that he tends to believe his own fabrications, I find to be as concerning as the lying itself. And I swear only someone who has been through this can really understand this, when you CATCH him in a lie he acts as if it never happened? I swear he acts as if he never spoke the words even if he said them 5 minutes ago. Or turns the ENTIRE situation around and makes like your "crazy" and the lies were not only never spoken by him but the entire situation never even took place????? And that brings me to my other MAJOR concern is the fact that he really does seem to reside in his own little world....What he SAYS and what he DOES are two entirely different things. His "reality" is so far fetched sometimes of what is really going on. That "low key" manipulation stuff really plays havoc with me.....And what you described as after awile you don't even know what is true and what isn't....I GET that. My son is only 16 years old and although I describe him as living in his own little world with little grasp of "reality". I also think he is subtly messing with my REALITY....That is a big part of the the whole thing he puts me through.
And that is when I try to remember and HOPE that maybe IT IS just a wall to block the tramatic event that took place in his childhood. And with proper care this could be something that he could get better in time...But as whatever it is that is "wrong" with him progresses this is getting harder to hold onto.
(Eric) Going to university was definitely expected by my family as both my parents graduated and my brother is currently in his final year. I always planned on going to university because I wanted to leave my home and get a doctors degree but I really have 0 determination to get it. I believe that I will get my degree eventually because unviersity is quite easy for me, but becuase it is not challenging I do not see it as an achievement. I'm leaving school becuase the boredom really is unbearable and I am not getting any sense of worth by passing my classes becuase they are so easy. I live life through each moment, and presently I am very unsatisfied and bored, thus the reason I am joining the army. I did very well in high school in my opinion, but not in my teacher's or my parent's opinion. I was in university level classes and I believe my average for grade 12 was 90 or so. This seems very good on the surface and to me it was, but I was constantly criticized because my teachers and my parents saw a severe lack of effort in school. I went to school about twice a week and I don't think I studied for one class and still got a reasonably high grade. However, I was constantly told I could do better, I could achieve more etc. This constant nagging made school hell for me and so, I showed up less and less. I don't really have any achievements I can think of, I don't believe I have the same sense of pride as you do. I judge myself more on the negative things I do that bother me rather than my accomplishments. By this I mean, if I were to say, lose a fight and also get 100% on my exam the same day, the loss of the fight would arouse my thoughts much more than the exam mark. I am not really proud of my accomplishments because others have also conquered them and possibly completed them better. For example, getting 90% is good, but there have been millions of people to get a 90% or higher and so, the accomplishment loses its value...
Yes, I have done cocaine a few times, 5 at the most. They say you always strive for that first high you felt, but it never really appealed to me. I can't say I enjoyed the high because of the intellectual conversation though, becuase when you are under the influence you think your thoughts are most intelligent than they really are. Your ex probably became infatuated with the intelligence he believed he had while in that state of high. The few times that I did coke I got more hyper and wanted to fight people, I never really experienced that conversation side of the high, I suppose. Oh, I'm glad you brought up the concept of control, becuase that is what refrains me from doing large amounts of drugs. I need to always be in complete control, and doing crugs like cocaine, acid, pcp, mushrooms, heroin etc would definitely make me lose that ability. I do smoke weed though, I find that my sociopathic tendencies rise to an unimaginable level and it is usually entertaining for me. I never smoked weed or drank to escape something though, I believe when someone reaches that level it becomes an addiction and the control is lost, and that is something I cannot let happen. Yes, I suppose jail would definitely take its toll on you and mellow you out, but it's not really a concern for me, because you need a clean record to join the army which is limiting my behaviour, for now. It is strange that people thought of him as a "punk asshole" though. I know that the times when I am high people begin to find me frightening, not so much a punk. When I am high, my emotions are completely gone and I become a very calm, intense person. Sometimes my high is a very dark persona that sort of takes over my body but my thinking process is still intact.
(ME) Noone can understand unless you've been through it... infact, if a friend were to ask me to give senarios it would be almost hard for me to do because it is all so confusing... you said it perfectly... THEY DEFINITELY SUBLTLY MESS WITH YOUR OWN REALITY!!! What my ex SAID and what he DID were two completely differnent things... I must have told him a million times that his actions didn't match his words... he was a master of words... he said all the right things... but they meant nothing... and I fell for it... I thought he was just hot and cold or scared because he has always been one of those "hard" sexy type guys... I thought he was just a typical "game" player... well he plays games alright!! I am a smart attractive successful woman and it made me think I was going crazy! but thank God I am a smart woman and figured it out sooner than later... I used to tell him that I was too strong and smart of a woman for him and he needed some dumb girl who worshiped him... but then he would act like nothing happened the next day and I would think I was "thinking" to much about everything and just let it go... I will say that I did figure it out rather quickly once I started to have feelings for him... see before it was always just someone to hang out with and I knew he wasn't the kind of guy to get serious with... well he knew I felt that way so he made it his mission to say all the right things to make me actually fall for him... and I did sort-of for a minute but I need balance in a relationship so... kudos to me for being strong enough to be done with it... because believe me... he was the best a twisting reality... he lives in his own world like your son... with a false sense of reality and manipulating the realities of those he so chooses!
(ME) also, sorry for my common spelling and gramatical errors... I am typing fast and not checking spelling...
(Eric) Pat, you first have to realize that a man's sex drive is MUCH different from a woman's. I could definitely live without sex, it is not a priority for me. Every man has needs but I believe I am able to rationalize these desires without having sex or embarassing myself. A lot of the time masturbating would seem to be the better choice because there are no feelings involved. When you have sex with someone and it means nothing to you, it often has an effect on the other person. The problem with having casual sex is that the woman often places herself in this situation to find love, not instant gratification, this is where the problem arises. A sociopath may have sex to empower himself and therefore control someone, bu they may also do it for the same reasons any other man does it, they have needs. There is a lot of controversial issues regarding sociopaths and sex but for me, basic casual sex, no strings attached is all I want. I hear stories of sexual sadists and whatnot but I believe that is a completely different disorder from anti-social personality disorder. I don't think that this is common for sociopaths at the age of 36. It seems that he has an unusually high sex drive, but it is not so uncommon to view it as a problem. Men are constantly thinking about sex and that drive doesn't fade away until you cross that hill and for many it is there for several years later. The fact that he held out on sex with you is a sociopathic trait, however. If he masturbated that much but didn't engage in sex with you as often and you were willing, it means he did this on purpose for his own personal reasons. He could have been trying to prove to himself or you that the sex you have will be held when he wants not when you want. There are tons of explanations for this, so I don't know exactl why he did this.
(ME) Eric... maybe I didn't describe it right the "punk asshole"... sure their were many people frightened by him... but I would say males... and this is coming from the female perspective and I always liked the bad boys so I probably thought it was cool back then... but for instance, parents hated him and if I were to tell anyone from highschool that I were hanging out with him (when I was) they would have told me not to get involved with him... he has burnt a lot of bridges... he was very calm when smoking weed or doing coke or or pills... but I don't think he ever got into mushrooms, acid or anything because then he would not be in control... but he can not be around groups of people in those situations or he would get in a fight for no reason... he prefers to only be around those who know him "well"... I'm using that term lightly... whoever his best friend at the time is with a small group...
as far as the being scared of him... yes guys were and are still I suppose... but when you get older you aren't at "parties" and things like the university... so he chooses to surround himself with people he can tolerate... or serve a purpose for him... but he is capable of being "evil" for sure!
(ME) but in my case... mostly charming because that is what he does with woman...
(ME) that is crazy about the sex.. the holding out thing because that is what he did as well... huh? funny, and at the time I thought he just didn't want to seem like he just wanted to get in my pants...lol... but I also think sex is not that big a thing for him either... like you Eric... I guess because it's easy for him to get if he wants it... it was not really a part of our relationship even though we had it a couple of times while dating...
(ME) regaurding the coke... my ex didn't really act too different... I think he liked how much other people told him and confided in him while high and it helped him to learn better how to manipulate them and people in general...
(HIM) Eric when you were diagnosed with this personality disorder what kind of testing was actually done? Did you take any written test as far as personality profile test or was it just through therapy that the evaluation was made?
And is this put in your medical records, such as the army would know this just as they would know any other medical history?
What do your parents think about the army? Especially your father?
Do you ever remember a time in your childhood that you WANTED to please your parents or have them be proud of you? Such as did you play sports when you were younger and enjoy having your parents at your games?
I think because I have been both a kid & a parent there is alot of misconception when kids are young and growing up. When I was a young child I really wanted my fathers attention because he was indifferent to me most of the time. Or attacking me verbally in an alcoholic rage. So what I recieved was negative attention or none at all. The "little girl" in me wanted to be a daddys girl. Naturally I wanted that positive attention. I never got it and like most kids once I was of certain age I realized that I could trigger my father and get attention. Negative attention, but all of a sudden "my actions" did matter. If I did something "wrong" I got his attention....As an adult I regret that I didn't have a good solid relationship with my father but I also understand why I did not. He was an alcoholic. That isn't an excuse but it is the reason.
When my own son started flunking a couple of subjects in school I became concerned. And thinking that...He is trying to get my attention. He always was good in school before. This was only the begining of many concerning things to follow. Initially I thought it to be the rebellion teenage thing. But his entire personality has changed. It is so much more than just normal teenage stuff. School although that became an "issue" between us initially is NOTHING compared to what lies beneath the surface with him.
As a parent when you see a very "dark side" of your own child you do one of two things. You go into denial or you panic and then second guess yourself. I did both.
When things keep presenting themselves to you on a daily basis you just know. Because so many of these things are so hard to articulate you mostly feel that others don't "get" what your trying to say.
The truth of the matter is that if my son was out there breaking the law, he would be getting attention. Because what is happeneing here is more subtle no one seems to get it. But the personality issues he displays now, trust me, he will be a danger to others and possibly himself if he does not get proper treatment. If they could SEE what I see they would be alarmed as much as I am alarmed.
I asked about how you were diagnosed as being a sociopath because my son was on a waiting list to take a written personality test and I wondered if this was a part of your diagnoses?
(HIM) Me, it is when I read these post and particularly hear what many of the sociopaths were like as teenagers that I become both fearful of what is ahead and also hopeful that maybe he has another disorder. I go back and forth with fear/hopeful. There are so many "disorders" out there and many of the symtoms overlap. The chilling part for me is the personality issues I deal with seem to fit the sociopathic tendancys.
Interestingly enough the one I can find the least information about is the Post Tramatic. That would be the one I would like to know the MOST about. As this seems to be something that would make SENSE for my son with his background. Most of the criteria is about reoccuring dreams or reliving the experience. Fear of going back to the location etc...If I went through the checklist with my son I doubt that he would answer yes to any of these symtoms.
Personally if this is his disorder it goes much deeper than reliving the experience. I think he has BLOCKED the experience as far as it being on the surface. It is buried way DEEP inside of him.
It would take a really good doctor to persuade those buried issues out of him at his age...A 16 year old kid does not want to go see a counscelor to begin with...Let alone sit there and spill out his guts. However it does make sense to me that this stuff should come out of him. It might be the "key" to the issues seen on the surface.
The whole idea of medicating him instead of finding a more accurate diagnosis to me is like putting a band aide on a huge open wound that needs stiches....
It has been my experience so far that these doctors/counscelors don't really treat the core of the problem. They don't even do enough accurate testing to correctly diagnose the problem. They medicate to see how the medication effects the patient. If meds work then fine if they don't try some different ones until there is some result? This is the process of elimination to diagnose what kind of depression/mood disorder he has?
NO WONDER our society is filled with so many disorders. Many of them are not being properly treated. Or diagnosed. And you would think that being younger he would be more "treatable" with some heavy duty therapy.
(Eric) It was an evaluation from my psychiatrist and I did fill out a couple papers but most of it was based on our conversations. He asked me a lot of questions and asked how do I feel about that or this person and from that he determined that I lacked empathy. When he concluded that he asked specific questions regarding to anti-social personality disorder and then he, I guess made up his mind. I was told to take anti-depressants but I am not depressed so I simply said no. The army will not see it I made sure that once that evaluation was made it would be held confidential between him and myself. I no longer have any communication with my parents but my mother did not want me to go and my father never asked a question about it. I think all kids want their parents to be proud of them but my father would never give approval and so unlike most people I simply stopped trying. It is common for this lack of approval to create negative actions for attention or for women to seek the approval of men through casual sex but I did not do this. Instead of trying to get his approval I distanced myself from him and began to hate him and realize that he was not a good person to be around. I never wanted my father to go to my sports games becuase just being in a car with him for 15 minutes was 15 minutes of awkward silence or 15 minutes of fighting. The difference with my father was that when I got in serious trouble he didn't care, he didn't show me attention regardless, his catch phrase was "I don't care, do whatever you want," and so I did. I was never on a waiting list, my psychiatrist just gave me forms to complete but i refused to write most of them, because my goal was never to be helped, it was to find out more about reading people and understanding them. The actual disgnosis consists of oral questioning and responses, the personality test is only used to see if further attention is needed, It is the first step in being diagnosed. I would suggest spekaing to a counsellor about your son taking this test before he joins that list. Reassurance of my nature only gave me more empowermnent and knowledge. Your son may just be going through a hard time dealing with PTSD or depression, etc but if comes to the realization that he is a sociopath, it may have been better to be treated for PTSD. "We stand before the light and our true nature is revealed, self REVELATION, is anhilation of self." By that I mean if he comes to the "revelation" that he is a sociopath, all other human qualities will be "anhilated" and thrown away leaving only his true nature, sociopath.
(HIM) Eric, My mission is not to push for a diagnoses to hear that my son has some disorder that is untreatable. NATURALLY that is not what I am hoping to accomplish here.
However he is on medication now and you have to allow time before the meds either seem to be working or not.
In the meantime he is still on the downward spiral. My thinking (there I go thinking again) was a CLEAR diagnosis, PTSD, Bipolar, Depression, ADHD, ect or combination.....Would more clearly define what meds he might need to be on and a treatment plan that might work for him.
That is why I questioned how you were diagnosed. It seems that even with a clear diagnoses sometimes if meds are necessary it takes a long time to get the right "fit" for many people.
My son right now seems to be distancing himself or shutting down, from most everything. School, even social side of school, his pt time job, myself etc. I look at this as a crucial time...In other words, WHAT exactly are they waiting for? I mean if this kid is not throwing out the red flags then I guess I don't know what a red flag is? And so this idea that the doctor is saying... "well.....We will try this for awile because we don't really know if he is depressed or if he is bipolar, he seems to definately have adhd, possibly a mood disorder...." This doesn't make alot of sense to me?
I don't know....Seems that I could have told THEM that much. Something is wrong for sure, I know this, but I was hoping they would have a more specific conclusion.
When you take your kid to the family doctor because they are running a 102 temp. You already know they have a fever you want to know why? And I suppose my expectations of taking him to a mental health doctor are the same. I know something is wrong and I want to know what that is. Maybe it isn't as easy to determine as if he had just a fever but it seems that it should be possible to do.
Being a parent is a really hard thing to do when you seem to be bumping your head up against brick walls all the time....I know that you said as a child you were taken to counsceling when you were younger because of the constant battle with your brother...
Much of the time I feel like a complete failure as a parent because my son is now experiencing all these problems. BEING the thinker that I am I relive about every moment in my sons life and what I might have done differently. Something obviously? But what? I don't know the answer to that question. I look at my older son and he seems fine. What I did seems to have worked with him. But his father didn't take his life either. He wasn't the "at risk" child I was raising. Sometimes parents just don't know what to do? Not an EXCUSE but a reason.
Do you suppose that your father because of his feeling like a falure in "parenting" you also detached at some point? As you were detaching from him he was doing the same? AGAIN not an excuse, he is the parent....But a concerned parent is usually the one who would take their kid to a counscelor, not one who "doesn't care, and you can do whatever you want". At some point he just didn't know how to parent you anymore? Is that possible?
I am not there yet, but I also do not know what to do to parent effectively. You have told me in the past to parent with showing that I care but not to let him get away with everything either. This is soooooo hard to do when the lies seem to take presidence over everything. He just lies about everything and so it is either a constant battle confronting the lies, that he seems to act as if these never happened or it is letting them slide. The more I question the lies the more the anger escalates. Bottom line with him is he seems angry with me if I don't believe his over the top stories... This to me is a true rock/and a hard place to be.
My sister is highly manipulative and has been caught in several lies during the period of our mother's decline and death. She is also given to openly contradicting herself from one conversation to the next, showing a two-faced nature that most of her targets don't catch.
She works in a Catholic school, so she told the assisted living facility that cared for my mother, her school (including the Priests and nuns), and the hospital where our mother later died that Mother was a Catholic. In reality, Mother was a Methodist. In the obituary that she helped the funeral director write, she admitted that Mother was a "long time member" of the local Methodist church, but was careful to not publish the obituary in the papers most commonly read by her colleagues at the school, although I think she will be surprised by one of the papers which does circulate where the hospital and assisted living facility are located.
She tries to sell our cousins that I did not care for my mother, only she did. I was only interested in money. I spent over $20,000 of my own money supporting my mother during her affliction.
She lied about our mother's behavior, including describing how she would "wander all over the neighborhood scaring people." She even quoted Mother's next-door neighbors as complaining about it. I questioned the neighbors, and they got angry about being used in such a lie and that my mother "never bothered anyone."
She lied about my mother agreeing to assisted living.
She lied about why she wanted me to move into my mother's home. She wanted me to use any savings in rent to pay all the deficit in assisted living costs once Mother's money ran out, but claimed at the time she wanted me to save the money for my eventual retirement instead. When I figured out that lie, she was startled speechless, which suggests some sociopaths CAN be rendered unable to manipulate when they are confident their lies are undetectable.
She frequently condemned friends and neighbors who assisted my mother while she was living at home as "Mother's enablers," keeping her from deciding for assisted living. She kept trying to keep them away from Mother. At the dinner following Mother's funeral, she made a toast thanking them for the help she once condemned.
She once promised to help me clean Mother's home and reneged.
She is now trying to get me to buy her out of her part of Mother's property, or live in Mother's home permanently with her having survivorship rights (RE: Authority).
I think I have to get her out of my life ASAP. I'm seeking the help of the lawyer probating the estate. Is this a good move on my part? I will have to walk away from all of the cousins on my father's side as she manipulates them.
(ME) It seems that a common denominator with sociopaths... it the absense (physically or mentally) of their father during childhood... my ex's dad left, Erics father didn't care, and sadly HIM's son's father commited suicide... etc... I wonder if that is the same for woman SP's or if it is something to do with the father/son bond... so tramatic... the more I read, I feel that nurture seems to be a large role in sociopathy... I would be curious to know if how many true sociopaths came from a "normal", loving stable home? No seemingly tramatic or unusual events... no divorce, death, sibling rivalry, etc... I bet not many, if any... there definitely is a correlation between NURTURE and a sociopath... and for me that is good news... not because I will ever try to "help" the one I know... but (HIM) maybe your son isn't doomed...and although he does have alot of SP qualities... maybe sociopaths are just people with PTSD that went untreated... this is good news for you... most SP parents probably didn't realize their child had PTSD or they just didn't care... but you do... I agree that this is a critical time in your son's life... if he is ever going to be able to be "helped" the time is now... you said you can't find anyone who knows much about PTSD? I'm curious... i haven't done much research... but how do you treat PTSD... it seems like it would have to be more than just meds... I think doctors are to quick to medicate and that just treats the symtoms and not the root of the problem... he needs intensive theropy... and if they determine he is a sociopath... I'm sure because he is a minor you can ask for him to not know the diagonsis... as Eric said, I don't think it is wise for him to know he is labeled a sociopath... because he will surely become one!
ive been reading this site because i think i may have been in a relationship with a sociopath. i met this guy in highschool. he's two years younger than me. i was very attracted to him -- he's the typical bad boy. he was in a gang and got into all kinds of fights. he was very popular. he had a girlfriend, but supposedly cheated on her alot and one day up and left her, breaking her heart. anyway, we messed around and afterwards barely talked-- until he thought i told his cousin about what happened at which point he went PSYCHO on me. i got harassing phone calls for months after this(i graduated that year.)
anyway, after that we got in contact on myspace again and he had moved to texas. he had beaten some guy up because the guy was harassing his nephew. anyway, he moved back to california two years later and wanted to see me. he's living with his friend, and they drove an hour or so to see me. we took up where we left off and it was amazing. he was everything i wanted.. it just felt so right? same day he asked me out -- i declined, because i was a bit suspicious.. but we spent a few days together and had the best time ever. he introduced me to his godparents and his mother. then things started happening that should've been red flags. he's very jealous. like, he would find out i was with my friends and be like "oh so were any guys there?" stuff like that. look at my phone all the time. i enjoyed it though cuz i like a little jealousy. he also(one time while high) told me if any of his friends hit on me to tell him, and that he had told his friends to do it(odd, that he told me that so i knew what to expect) he also was controlling, but not too much so.
he doesnt have a job yet and i'm pretty well off so i would pay for things like movie tickets for us and dinner, but soon i got tired of it because i'm a lady and i shouldn't be treated like that!
one night he had me go get beer and told me to come pick him up later. he never called and i got pissed(i'd given him money) he called me at 3 am drunk as hell and begging forgiveness, and i didnt want to be mad anymore so i went to pick him up. he got into a fight while we were there and he demanded i take him to ihop -- and when i said no he tried to jump out of my car, and so i was going to take him back. he kept screaming that he wasnt a pussy and he was gunna fight that guy when we got back. anyway, he passed out and i was gunna leave. his friend followed me out and tried to hit on me, i said no and went home. i didnt hear from boyfriend the next day and for a few days so i got pissed and broke it off with him.
he took me off his friends list on myspace and i sent him a message saying i hope we can still be friends. as soon as he read it he messaged me like, "are we still together?? i didnt even get your text messages etc." so we were back together. we planned to hang out the next weekend and smoke weed.. the night came and something happened and i couldnt pick him up.. he showed up at my house at 12, saying we were gunna hang out but he needed to go get the weed. i got mad and gave it to him and told him if he didnt come back it was over between us.
he didnt come back and the next day he texted and called me begging for my forgiveness. i told him i was going out and he said no not unless i'm going with you. so i went to go pick him up and when he saw me he pushed me against the car and kissed me and told me how sorry he was. we went and he got the weed and we were going to go visit his cousin and we saw some kid getting jumped by two other bigger kids. he flipped the car around and confronted them like he was going to stop them, and we realized they were just playing around. anyway, we went home, smoked weed, had fun.. but we kind of started arguing and he kept using my phone. some of my guy friends texted me and he pushed it in my face, but he didnt seem mad. he said he wasn't mad, but whatever. he was hungry so we were going to go get something to eat, and he drove so i didnt take my glasses(we were in my car) but halfway there i realized he was driving the opposite direction and i got mad cuz i knew he was going back to where he was staying. when we got there i started crying and saying i cant drive home without my glasses. he kept telling me he was going home with me, he'd be right back. he left and 20 mins later i realized he left me there, no glasses and in the middle of the night in a different town.
the next day i sent him a message telling him i loved him but it was over.. he never sent anything back. i think he calls me on restricted number but never says anything..
my question is, is he a sociopath? he fits the criteria but he was so jealous and angry, i was thinking he might have a paranoid disorder? he was unselfish and was willing to stand up to some bullies who were beating on a little kid-- would a sociopath do an act of kindness like that? and he started crying in my presence once when talking about his grandfather(who, from what i gather in his stories, was the only person who ever really took care of him and loved him as a child.) he also was very close to the best friend he was living with. they're like brothers. he also cared alot for my mother, who is physically sick. he would notice things like i had a nicer car than she did, etc. his own mother, to my knowledge, is a drug addict in and out of prison.
eric, i hope you're still reading this because i need your insight.
i already did leave him LOL! but i'm still trying to find out what happened, so i can make sure not to let my guard down again
(HIM)I have to agree with ME...I don't understand all of what leads you to conclude he is a sociopath? He sounds like a real looser for sure. But you admitted that he was a bad boy when you met him and that is exactly what he turned out to be...So no surprise there.
And hopefully you realize that something about the whole bad boy image was something you found attractive to begin with. The best thing you can do right now would be to focus on that and try to understand why you allowed yourself to be treated that way? The only way you will get treated like a "lady" is to date a guy who is a gentleman! Be good to yourself and know that you deserve to be treated better.
It is interesting that you seem to think you let your guard down....And your not sure what happened? Maybe you are very young, I am not sure. But if you go out with a bad boy. That is what you will get. If you got a boyfriend with no job. Thats what you have a jobless boyfriend and you will have to pay for everything. And If you center most of your time together drinking and smoking weed.....Well, you get the picture. If you are young then hopefully you did learn alot through this experience....Bad Boys only turn into Nice Guys in the movies. In the real dating world it doesn't work that way.
(ME) Well said (HIM) :)
Hey, I'm a sociopath. It seems like you often make me out to be the bad guy, but when it comes down to it, I try to make the using even. Sure, if you're another pawn in my life I'll get what I want and kick you to the curb, but if you're someone I'm with often, I'll make sure to keep you around. I'll treat you well. I'm living in my 'friends' house and being a good friend to him. If anyone has any questions about a sociopath, let me know. NeonDrk@aim.com I'm huge into psychology and philosophy so I'm somewhat interested in myself I guess.
To the above post, would like to hear more about you. Most of us here on this blog are trying to recover from a relationship of some kind with a sociopath. Be it a friend, lover, business associate, family member etc. Any insite into the mind of a sociopath can be helpful.
I would like to hear about your years growing up as there has been alot said here on the nurture/nature aspect of a sociopath. What do you think about that?
i'm 20 years old. well, you're definately right about i should have known better. when he first came around i did have a guard up, i had known his past. but we started talking. he found out that i'm going to college to become an RN, he seemed really interested and impressed because alot of girls we knew from high school aren't really doing much with their lives. when we were around others he would always brag about my education, how smart he thought i was. he himself was getting a job(he and his friend were going to work in an oil rig) and he seemed to honestly be trying to pull himself together. he once told me he wanted to get money so he could buy his mom a house and take care of her(idk why, she didnt seem to take good care of him to be honest.)
i do think i'm attracted to bad boys in a way -- but i don't solely date them. ive dated good guys but i always look for guys that are tough or macho. i dont know why i do this, i think it may be because as a child i was often bullied, especially by my way older(19 years older) brother. my parents, especially my dad, never did anything to protect me from it.. so maybe im looking for someone who can protect me. i dont know. lol. thanks for taking the time to respond to me :)
(HIM) I kind of guessed that you were younger because I think many of us as young girls do tend to gravitate to the bad boy image....
Do yourself a favor and really take in what you learned from this experience. Being a nurse is a wonderful job. I applaud you for that. Many times nurses are very careing & nurturing type personalities...Know this about yourself and know that you need to raise the BAR several notches on whom you will and will not date. LOOSERS tend to gravitate to women who have warm & nurturing personalities because they want someone to take care of THEM. It will always be "all about them" in a relationship. Your needs will go unmet for the most part. They might throw you a bone once in awile to keep you around but again it is them doing it for thier own "interest" at stake. The best way to enpower yourself is to get to a point where you are your own protector. A great education is the best place to start! You won't need anyone to support you. That right there is enpowerment. While your getting that education, take the time to really know yourself. Reflect on ALL of your past relationships. Find the common denominator. If you are not happy with the "role" you ended up being in these past relationships than know that you are attracted to the wrong "type" of guys.
The NICE guy will respect you for who & what you are, and not take advantage of it. Good Luck :)
(Sarah)
Hi, Eric. First of all, kudos to you because you seem to understand yourself and others so well. As a fellow 18-year-old college student, I definitely see the attraction to having a personality type like yours that you feel puts you on top in every situation- it's a very difficult time of change, and i know a lot of people who would love to have the confidence and self-motivation to constantly succeed you so obviously show.
I actually finished my first semester of college but withdrew from my second as I realized that I was at the mercy of someone in my residence who, if not a sociopath, has very sociopathic tendencies. He targeted me from the beginning of the school year, I think because I seemed like a challenge- I was bubbly and confident, and a few guys he knew were also pursuing me. He was going through his own tough adjustment, as he'd recently broken up with his girlfriend of a year. She was his 20th high school girlfriend, and by far his longest lasting relationship. He admitted to me that he feels a drive to always be in control and manipulate situations, and that rather than work out his differences with a girl he would just break up with her. I naively thought I was different because we fought a couple times in the beginning of our 5-month fling and he acted intent upon resolving our issues and getting back on my good side.
This guy also possesses a confidence that he can always get what he wants. He is obsessed with the army, as you seem to be, Eric, and is passionately involved in the Reserve Officers Training Corps. He also enjoys pushing himself to the absolute limit physically and mentally, and I know that he gained feelings of superiority and confidence by realizing, after a couple of months, what impact he was having on my life. And, though I knew from the beginning that he was hitting on me too strongly and that he was bad news, I gave into him eventually, trying to make him happy and prove that I was worthy of him. He led me on for months into thinking that we could have an exclusive relationship, and because I have little experience with guys coming onto me like that, I believed what I wanted to believe- that it could really happen.
Eventually, my relationship with him made me incredibly depressed and confused, and I became even more depressed when I realized what effect I had allowed him to have on me. The psychologist I'm seeing now at home has told me to not blame myself, as, considering my lack of experience with guys and his intense desire, from the beginning of the school year, to dominate me, I really didn't stand much of a chance of being strong enough or knowledgeable enough to fight back.
I don't care if this guy is a sociopath or not - I don't really think he is, because he has expressed feeling love and heartbreak about his last girlfriend and shows insecurity at times by bragging to others about his accomplishments and begging their approval.
Sociopath or not, I have definitely learned that guys who need objects of their affections to feel subordinate to them in order to make themselves feel superior are not good for relationships, regardless of how much they flatter you or lead you on with promises of the future.
My self-confidence has been utterly crushed by this entire experience, however, and I am still trying to recuperate from my depression, find my flaws that attracted such a man to me, and make myself stronger so that it will not happen again.
(ME)... to the above post... I actually think he may be a sociopath... I usually don't think alot of the young girls who post things boyfriends are sociopaths... but he definitely shows signs... and I am also impressed with your mature thought process about your relationship and life in general... especially at your young age!!! I would be interested to know a few more facts about him... just because he "seemed" to express love and heartbreak from his last relationship does not mean anything... sociopaths are masters of mimicing emotion to get what they want... my ex cried to me when he thought he might have needed to... so that I would stick around when I caught him in a lie... anyway, I don't have time to write more or ask more questions now but I do think you may be dealing with a sociopath and am glad to see that you are smart and confident enough to get away...even while dealing with depression... he probably will end up trying to contact you again ...so stay strong!!!
(Eric) In response to (Me)'s comment on the nurture factor being predominant in sociopath. I have wondered about this and I have come to an alternative conclusion. I often thought it is possible that I am the reason for my troubles and that perhaps I over-exaggerate problems until I noticed that my brother experienced the same problems. This made me look back at my parents relationship with their parents. Now it is is quite possible that I have become a sociopath due to nurture but as I looked at my family history it seemed that each father showed definitive signs of being a sociopath. There have been links of genetics that play a role in sociopaths and so perhaps the treatment of the father isn't due to the past father's treatment but because they were born this way. For example if my grandfather was a born this way he would have been a bad father, as he was and so my father may have been influenced by the genes and the abusive treatment was inevitable regardless. By this I mean if you are born a sociopath, and are abusive to your kids who's to say whether they act this way because of their father's treatment or because they were born without empathy and so the abusive treatment went along accordingly. I have also noticed that this "gene" does not latch on to each child. My father and his brother are clear sociopaths and his brother has 1 son of 3 that is also a definitive sociopath. My brother lived through the abuse I did but reacted in a much different way, where he would act out and lose self-esteem and self-worth, I would pursue to damage each family member and empower my ego and gratification. I noticed that between the 5 of us, my 3 cousins, my brother and I, 2 of us have yet to have a change in behaviour, or matured, so to speak. These 2 people are myself and my cousin that is also a sociopath. The other 3 all experienced abuse and their own problems but a few years after puberty they matured and were calm, and accepting. Out of the 5 of us, only myself and my sociopath cousin would purposely create tension for our amusement and laugh when punishments and consequences headed our way. My point is that although it seems as though being a sociopath is derived solely from the nurture standpoint, it does raise several question about why 2 of the 5 are so very different from the other 3. The initial abuse was reacted to the same by the 3 but complete opposite of the other 2. So, it would be impossible to say that sociopaths is solely derived from nurture because if sociopathy runs in the genes then it is inevitable that abuse will occur, how the children react to it is revelation to the truth.
(Eric) To the girl who just dumped that guy, I don't believe he is a sociopath in the least. I don't want to get too in depth about it but just trust me he is not a sociopath. My view of this guy is that he had a dysfunctional homelife and was not showed love by his mother or father, but possibly by his grandfather. If he cried about his grandfather and it seems this was the only real loving relationship he had, then I would say that it likely was one, which takes sociopath out of the picture. Many kids become "thugs" as a way of acting out and being seen as powerful and feared because they have lived their life with no love which creates low self-worth and so being a bully is the way to inflate your ego and disguise your true feelings. As for stopping to help those kids being beat up it is possible he was trying to impress you or becuase he saw himself in the kids being bullied and knows exactly how that bad that feels. Regardless of what he has or doesn't have you should come to grips with your own reality. Looking for the tough guy is a way of replacing your older brother who was supposed to look after you, it is a simple transferrence. You are definitely a very clear target for sociopaths and anyone controlling and shallow. Why would you let someone treat you like that? Why would you want to be with someone who treats you like that? You may have experienced a bad childhood but you are 20 years old, I'm sure your intelligent enough to know that if your trend isn't broken it will continue. I'm sure if you asked anyone in a normal, healthy relationship they would tell you that the best comfort and protection is from their partner who gives and receives. You can continue your trend but you will most definitely come into contact with people like your ex but maybe next time he'll be abusive, future ex-husband or a sociopath. You are the perfect target for a sociopath because you are letting men walk over you and then begging them to come back. The truth the sucks but living in ignorance in not always bliss.
(ME) Eric... I understand what you are saying and you definitely make some valid points... but I'm still wondering if it is just how you processed what happened to you in your childhood... I'm not saying that you weren't predetermined for psychological problems but what I wonder is that if you were born and then adopted by a loving family as a baby and were not raised by your biological SP father... but raised by a perfectly loving "healthy" home (lets just say for arguements sake this is possible)...would you still be a sociopath?
(Eric) I noticed a lot of people seem to be curious about whether or not someone is a sociopath, so I thought I would give a few pointers of realizing.
Sociopaths-
are always dominant in the relationship
make you feel that he/she is better than you
upon first impressions and first few dates appears to be the ideal boyfriend
contradicts several aspects of their life
has an odd or no relationship with their family
incredibly narcissistic
will cry only at times when the situation seems to altering ex. breaking up
shows intolerance of certain people
verbally or physically abusive
very argumentative and wins each argument one way or another
A clear way to tell if someone is a sociopath is to have a serious belief about them i.e. emotionally detached, abusive, hateful, unfaithful etc and upon confronting them you leave the situation believing whatever he/she has told you and your initial belief is diffused. By this I mean if you confront them about being abusive they will tell you they are so sorry and that they only do it becuase it's all they saw as a child, and that they want to change the trend in their family and that they are trying so hard and eventually it will become your fault for believing this and you will apologize, guaranteed. That is main factor in a sociopath, it is nearly impossible to leave the relationship unless they choose to end it.
(ME) Eric is correct... I think the determining factor is that even though you are positive that your (negative) feelings about them are correct or that you have caught them or are convinced that you are right about how terrible they are... and then confront them... and by the end of the conversation or "fight" you end up feeling that YOU are the wrong one or sorry... then you are almost always dealing with a sociopath... and it is terribly hard to get out of the relationship unless they end it...
that being said... I'm patting myself on the back for MY ending the relationship... and figuring out that he was a sociopath... I think that was a major flaw in our "relationship"... I am not the ideal target... I am very smart and a sharp thinker... and too independent... although, I think the reason he thought I was a good target is because we did know each other for a long time (on and off) and I do long to get married and want to find love...so I have momentary weakness but they don't last long... and I own a nice house he believed he would be able to weasle his way into... but I ended up not being a push over and figured him out relatively quickly after our relationship went from "friendship" to "dating"... so yeah... I'm a smart cookie...lol...
(HIM) Please be careful ME as although you broke off the relationship if he feels that he didn't "win" in this situation I would wonder what he might do in retaliation?
I believe that there are alot of jerks and narcissistic guys out there and add a little alcohol or drugs into the mix and you hit the jackpot...Even "nice" guys can turn into an instant asshole with the addition of alcohol or drugs. These people should not all be labeled as sociopaths.
A sociopath doesn't need the addition of mind altering substance to do their "work". I am sure that if under the influence it would intensify their already intense personality but a sociopaths personality is evident without it.
I have carefully tried to process all of the information that I have learned over these past few months about sociopathic behaviour. And have also taken into consideration my own situation.
Eric gave many insites on what you should look for if your in a relationship with an SP.
Here is what I think....
I believe there are also many differences in how the SP makes you FEEL that are similar but also very DIFFERENT than being involved with just the average common "looser".
For starters with when your involved with a looser type it is easier to clearly "define" what is going on in the relationship. You can "relate" to your friend that you are spilling your guts to, word by word what happened the night before etc.(and some of it makes sense) When a boundary is crossed it is easy to see that is what happened.
When your involved in a relationship with a SP it becomes very hard to articulate what is going on. The reason is because they have an ability to really mess with YOUR OWN "reality". Sometimes this is so subtle you don't even realize it is happening and sometimes it isn't so subtle but it always happens. No matter what transpires, the lies, the manipulation, all of it. They turn it all onto YOU. A cheating husband also can do this, or many other situations when people get "caught" in the act of doing something wrong and being confronted with it. They will try and twist and turn the situation to "suit" them. That is just plain manipulation. HOWEVER when involved in a sociopath relationship you will get the feeling of this happening with almost every situation. Even the "small stuff". By the end of the day you are exahsted just trying to figure out what really DID JUST happen? NO MATTER how over the top the lies might be or the situation at hand might be they have YOU wondering if you are somehow at fault or are going crazy or what? And no matter what you do, it will not change it, improve it, defuse it.....It is truley a NO WIN situation. EVERY single time. That is where your own loss of "reality" really hits you.
The sociopath personality is so full of contradictions that living with them on a daily basis is enough to put you over the edge. Contradictions is their REALITY. But this becomes your REALITY once you spend enough time with them. They do not respond to being "caught in the act" like you or I would. Most people would try to defend themselves when caught in a lie. Or RESPOND to your confrontation in some way, even an apology. If a sociopath realizes the "need" to for this particular offense they might "mimic" feelings and say they won't do it again. But OFTEN times they will just dismiss these things as if they NEVER happened. And for all appearances sake it is as if they BELIEVE it never did. AND they SEEM to expect you to accept that it didn't happen as well. This can be one of the ways the mess with your "reality".
In a relationship with an asshole type you do not get your needs met and they mistreat you on many levels, this eventually leads to feeling bad about yourself, no doubt.
When involved with a SP it really goes beyond all of that. When someone mistreats you they are not showing empathy to you. But the sociopath has NO empathy for you or anyone in any situation. When this is revealed to you over and over again, then you know. A SP never lets their guard down. Their actions are very calculated.
(ME) I agree... HIM... he is dangerous and I am trying to be as careful as I can... he does still worry me but I'm just trying to move on as best I can and have no contact with him... really he has won in the end because it is me who worries about it and thinks about it every day... because we were friends it does bother me that I can no longer talk to him ever! but that is the way it has to be!! But yes, I am always watching my back so to speak...
Also, HIM, I don't know why you say you aren't good at articulating things... you are excellent at it! You just did a fabulous job describing the way a sociopath effect your every day life... it is so true that it is hard to even explain to your friends/family what the SP has even done "wrong"... At the end of every day I was just left feeling confused and drained!!! And I'm serious every day and then I would begin to accept what their reality was as well... it's all very hard to understand and explain... I'm still having a hard time while typing this... but you do an excellent job!!! It truely is only those who have dealt with a TRUE sociopath that can ever understand... that is why it is so theraputic (and scary) to read your posts and know someone else understands me!! And it has helped enormously to read Erics posts and learn more into the mind of a sociopath... thanks!
(HIM) I suppose the reason I feel I can't articulate this well is because I have had a very hard time explaining where I am "comong from" to my sons counscelor. And I certainly can't accurately define this to a friend of mine if I needed to.
To be honest I am somewhat horrified that I do "get it"....I don't WANT to be able to relate to what it feels like to be living with a sociopathic personality. I try and CONVINCE myself on a daily basis that I get some of this stuff only because I am a concerned mother and have done more research on personality disorders, depression, and bi polar, Post Tramatic, etc. than the average person. And I have read this blog and love fraud and whatever other reading material I can get my hands on for more information. I am certainly not an expert and there are so many disorders that cross over as far as symtoms go. I am a thinker and that can be both a good thing and a bad thing. I also have very strong intuitions. Especially now where this is concerned.
I do BELIEVE that I can understand how the victim of a SP might feel because I can relate to much of it. this is a very big concern of mine. People don't seem to understand or "get it" if they haven't experienced it. Reading about it even becomes more perplexing, doesn't necessarily define it better....If you don't live with it you can't put your finger on it. Even the "text book" definition of the sociopath that are described in the medical journals the profesionals use when diagnosing these disorders can NOT accurately describe how YOU feel when living with one.
I have taken in everything Eric has said about his childhood/puberty years and asked question after question to him regarding these years. It seems imperative to me to understand these years.
My son seems right now owtwardly depressed, this is true. And with seeing this depression I would love to disregard what I see beneath this depression....The personality disfunction. I saw this disfunction BEFORE the depression signs were noted.
My fear of course lies in the fact that in order to be treated correctly for what is going on with him, it first needs to be diagnosed correctly. If he is just treated for the depression and NOT for what lies beneath that this is what I am worried about. I swear he has TWO different issues going on. The doctors I have had experience with seem to only identify with what they see on the "surface" and what they can medicate. This is where this LACK of being able to articulate in words what goes on here on a daily basis can be so frustrating.
I have read and reread all the information I can find about Bipolar. Because it was said that this could possibly be what my son suffers from. However although my sons moods can change in a FLASH sometimes I do not at all relate to the "manic" part of what I read about this disease. Again maybe the text book definitions do not accurately describe what a person might see while living with someone in the "manic" state. However it ALMOST troubles me that I CAN'T relate much of this stuff to my sons behaviour. Because I would rather be able to relate to these treatable disorders than the non treatable.
I have a co-worker at my work that fits the description of a sociopath perfectly. He caused alot of problems with everyone. When he first started working here, he was actually very charming and well liked. After a couple months though his true personality showed through and one by one, people started to realize what he was really about. We are fortunate though to be a close-knit group. Being in the military, it's tough to get 'fired' but he's on his way to being kicked out anyhow with the disciplinary problems he's had. The somewhat entertaining side to it is all of the games he plays never seem to pan out in the end and he seems to keep digging himself a deeper hole each time. Doesn't seem to learn from his mistakes or understand why the world is against him. His life genuinely sucks whether he realizes it or not. I ended up being his immediate supervisor. It was a headache dealing with the lies and games, but I've found taking a hard line to it and documenting everything he does makes it all the easier to railroad this guy out for good. I think within the next few months there should be enough of a disciplinary paper trail for him to finally pack his bags out be out on his ass.
I am a long term victim of my mother. She is such a powerful entity in my life and I literally fear her,emotionally,physically,mentally and financially. I am 36 now and a mother and still under her control. I left home when I was 16 and always find myself back home with her because of failed efforts. I always knew there was something so very wrong with her since I was very young. I would dream that there were 2 of her, evil and good.She has devoured me and spit me out and no one believed me in my family because she is so convincing and amazing at lieing and manipulating,its scarey. She had convinced everyone I was the troubled one. I was suicidal all my life because of her and turned to drugs and alcohol because of the pain and hopelessness. So I made it easy for her to point the finger. Now my brothers are finally seeing who she really is and no longer speak with her. They are married and away from her. I have always been her prime victim, and it has seemed as if her mission and job in life is to destroy me,and again I recently had to move back with my son, its only been a week and its back ten fold.If I told you the sick and disturbing things she has done to me,well lets put it this way, people who seen and heard for themselves literally dont believe it. I feel scared, hopeless and powerless. Everyone says get her out of my life,its easier said than done, Ive tried. She so good at what she does,that even after all she has done, I still get sucked into her vortex. I literally feel like a prisnor on death row.
(HIM) It must have been very hard for you growing up with a mother like that. And I certainly can't even imagine it...I won't even pretend to know what it is like to have walked in your shoes.....
However I'm sure that you know she is never going to change and the only changes that can be made in your family dynamics are the changes you are willing to make for yourself. You are a mother now and I don't know how much influence she has over your child. But if the impact of her raising you had such a negative effect on your life, know that her influence can do the same to your child. It is your responsibility now to try and save your child from this and I hope you can find the strength to do that. As a child you were powerless to do anything. And no one was there to protect or save you. Sometimes as a parent we can find strengths that we didn't know we possesed.
Whatever it is that keeps putting you in the position that you "need" her again in your life, be it roof over your head, money, addictions etc....You need to try and break that cycle. I know it is easier said than done but you have to begin somewhere. If your addictions brought you back to her house then that would be the place to start. Hard work, you can't do it alone but well worth the effort. Could turn your whole life around if that is the problem...You can't change the past but you can change your future!
Eric,
Thanks for answering my question with your list of conditions for determining if someone is a sociopath. It wasn't a direct reply to my problems with my sister during my mother's dying and now with the will about to enter probate, but it did serve enough to answer my main questions.
1. My sister IS a sociopath and/or malignant narcissist. She hits almost every condition, especially the argumentative part and how she explicitly declares her superiority.
2. Her emotions are feigned, especially the crying.
3. For the past 25 years or more, the only time she ever contacted me was to try to get money out of me. This tells me that once the will is probated, I will be in the clear with her once again, with no contact until such time as she needs money again. All I have to do is just say "No," and move on. She didn't even know my address after I had lived in the same place for 14 years. If I relocate and don't tell anyone she knows where I am, HOME FREE!!
This is a question and if someone can answer I would appreciate.
Is it possible a sociopath be a Christian and go to church and everything? And if so, how is this possible if they lack empathy and have shallow emotions?
Yes it is possible for a sociopath to be a Christian and go to church.
They mimic or act out emotions rather than actually feel them.
(Concerned Mom) I've spent the last few hours reading about Sociopathy and feel as though my life has been touched by it as well. I have a neighbor that is a foster parent, 3 weeks ago they were given guardianship of a 10 year old boy. His story, true or not - his mom died, and step father was abusive and he was taken from his home as a result of his step fathers abuse.
I have a 10 year old daughter... she's very pretty, energetic, has tons of friends... and she came in one day after playing outside and said this boy was "weird". I was upset with her because I thought it was wrong to be judgemental and not play with this boy because he's new to the neighborhood and seems weird. (My first mistake)
For a week, he'd meet us at my car door as I pulled into the driveway, insisting on playing with my daugher. I made "kind" excuses... homework, other plans, etc. One day last week she takes our dog out for a walk at the pond... next thing I know there's a huge commotion at my front door and this boy comes bursting into my house ahead of my daughter... and she's yelling at him to get out of our house. The look on her face was enough for me to point to the door and tell him to "GET OUT OF MY HOUSE - NOW!!!" After he left, I locked the door, asked her to tell me exactly what happened... and she said that she told him that she had to go back home (an excuse not to stay outside with him - admittedly)and she told me he said she was going to go to HELL.(she wears a necklace with a religious insignia in plain sight) She was terrified and said she was tired and wanted to go home. He then said she was just a bitch.
Come to find out there were more problems with this boy, he's been burying stolen items in the sand near the pond... a neighbor saw him digging in the soil and went up to see what he was digging for... he came up with an elaborate story about finding a time capsule, which contained a CD, some keys and a letter. He went into detail about the letter (which never existed) then confessed to the neighbor when questioned where it was that he made up the letter, and wasn't sure why the stuff was buried there. (Neighbors are knitting "situations" together and finding out this boy is stealing from unlocked cars and open garages) He also asked my husband why the fountain in the pond wasn't running, and my husband told him that the water level in the pond was to low, so he isn't turning it on until the pond fills to an exceptable level. Next thing we know (within days of this conversation)the fountain is broken and has been dragged to the side of the pond closest to this boys house. We spoke to his foster parents about the behavior and his foster mother admittedly said that she's having trouble with him and his "relationship" with her younger foster son (approx 3 mos)she says the boy shows aggression toward the infant and she's at her wits end with him. After reading other comments on this site, I must confess... eventhough this boy is still quite young I feel he is a sociopath. His early behavior when we first met him was polite. I was impressed with his manners, poise & intellect, and he spoke so eloquently. As time passed and he didn't get his way, he became more forceful, and called me out on the excuses not to have my daughter play with him. He's been told by my husband and myself that he's not to come over anymore or go to our daughter if she's outside playing, and his foster mother has told him the same. So, now he yells out her name in school and yells that he misses her when there's a crowd of people present. Of course she's humiliated. I love children, and yet after reading this site, I wish he was no longer a neighbor. I fear for my child's safety, as well as the other members of my family. (These are just a few of the things that I've learned of his behavior since our "incident")
(Eric) I was born and raised Catholic and went to church. I used to go every Sunday until I was about 14 and refused to go but I still go once or twice a year On Christmas and Easter. I didn't go because I wanted to be forgiven or to hear the word of the Lord, I went because my family went. As an adult it is very unlikely that I will continue to go to church, simply because I could not be bothered. I have my own beliefs and my own thoughts and I do not wish to freely accept the laws imposed by strangers.
(ME) Eric?... Is God or Jesus a stranger to you? I'm asking seriously... I have a close personal relationship (I only go to church a few times a year) with God... do you as a sociopath feel that there is a God? Do you believe in Jesus? Have you experienced God personally? Been "touched" or "moved" by Him in some way? Or is it organized religion that just bothers you?
i am currently in a dispute at work with what i can only describe as a sociapath, she started around 18mths ago and four of us quickly became friends, she has an amazing sense of humour and abilities to mimic, but in hindsight these are always used at someone elses expense. She then experienced finacial difficulties, and turned against one of us who was finacially secure. she turned the supervisor against this person and other people who she had previously despised, although i was still friends with her and the other person i was rapidly becoming uncomfortable with the trouble she was causing, and the way the other friend who had always been a very kind person was changing, i witnessed her humiliation of others disguised as humour in order to get her own way. the end finally came after i had a lot of personal problems in a short space of time, mainly immediate family serious health problems, her words to me were "you are just like me out for youself". i was speechless as i thought she understood the pressure i had been under, then the campaign turned against myself as well, the other friend started distancing herself although when on her own was back to normal, and so the two of us have found ourselves completely ostrosized, nobody else seems able to see what she has done, to the extent that i have had to put an official complaint about her, as i am the only one who knows the extent she originally went to i know my job is on the line as managment do not look favourably to this type of complaint especially as it does involve one of them. this is the differance between me and her, i have had sleepless nights. cried uncontrollably through the guilt of not wanting to get anyone in trouble, but i know she would rub her hands in glee if me or this other person ended up leaving or losing our jobs. and then she would turn to her next victim.
Here is an interesting insight: man posts on our thread. Man considers himself a sociopath. Man admits to manipulating people for the thrill of it. Man thinly veils his contempt for the women (insert, "stupid women") who know his personality and continue to bear their souls and ask for relationship advice. Man calls himself Eric. Man then attracts vulnerable bloggers who seek his advice on an emotional defect they will never truly understand. Man likes control and this forum puts him in a place of power, where he is the therapist and able to manipulate willing victims at will. Does this man tell the truth? Sometimes - when it suits his purpose. But what is a little truth...or a lot of truth...when you are winning your little game?
Now comes the interesting fact: Man is incapable of meaningful connection to other humans. Man is somewhat proud of this void and uses it for his advantage...or so he thinks. Man will never feel the positive effects of cooperation or connection, so he resorts to an "all-me" attitude. His main goal in life is to win. But what he doesn't realize is that he was born a loser. The capacity to love is the highest form of human existence, and those who can't love are forced to wander on a sub-existent level. Man thinks that he is winning when he causes another to cry, to hurt, to feel...to love. But each time he elicits an emotional response from a normal person, he is too blind to see the real truth - their capacity for a conscious is the ultimate triumph in any exchange between two people. And truly, what is manipulation but a mirror effect of one's own inabilities? Because, in all reality, no one person can control another. We all have the freedom to choose our actions, our responses. So, you never win...because it was never a game. But "said sociopath" will never realize this, because it takes more than a high IQ to reach human enlightenment.
Kudos to all the people out there who have a heart...
By the way, this post is not for "Eric" - it's for the curious people who need a little reminder of their own emotional strength. Trust your own intuition. Focus on your own goodness. And be a champion for the helpless. That's the M.O. of a true winner. And if you're still hungry for "the mind of a sociopath", remember that it comes at a price.
(ME) to the above post... I do not ask for relationship advice from Eric... and I am smart enough to realize that he is a sociopath and what he is capable of... I do not get my emotional strength or sense or worth from Eric... I am not playing a game with Eric and do not care if I win or lose...
That being said... I think Eric's posts have been candidly honest about himself and his upbringing... I respect the fact that he has allowed some of us (especially those trying to deal with a child who may be an SP) to get a glimpse into the mind of a sociopath... If you read his posts, most of them have little to do with guidance or advice... It is more about his own "life" and upbringing... and we can learn from that... I think he has stated that he does not care about any of us and does not care what we do or don't do with the info we receive from him... For those of us who regularly visit this site we understand that he has no conscience... and are not looking for him to "help" us emotionally in any way... it is more about better understanding the mind of a sociopath... and I think Eric has been very helpful in that respect and thank him for that... I do not agree with his "lifestyle" or have to "like" him as a person... but I respect him for being so open about his motives and what makes him "tick"... he does not care whether we like him or not... he does not care about anyone on this post or what happens to us as a result of our sociopaths... all he does is help us understand the mind of a sociopath better... even if that is being manipulative and demeaning and lying in the process... afterall, he is a sociopath...
(ME) So Eric... I thank you!
(Eric) I find it very amusing when someone thinks they have figured out a sociopath, because a sociopaths ultimate goal is to never be understood. First of all you say that I have contempt for women which is true but what about my contempt of men. I labelled a group of women stupid because they made stupid decisions; I did not have a predisposed disposition of them, my belief came after an apparent negative decision on their behalf, not mine. I do not "think" that I use this void to my advantage I know I do. If you were in my shoes can you say that you wouldn't do the exact same thing. If you had no morals and no conscience what would stop you from hurting other people? If this forum is a game for me then there must be a winner and a prize. A sociopaths prize is watching someones emotional reaction caused by them, but if I cannot see how my responses affect people where is the prize? My view of winning is not the same as yours, by making someone cry I am not doing it because I have personal problems at home and this way I can act out, I do it because I am fascinated with human understanding. There are varying degrees of evil, varying degrees of sociopaths and their minds are all different. Not every sociopath seeks out others for his pleasure, some sociopaths have an understanding of who they are and accept it, some are angered or depressed by it and need to lash out on others. I also disagree with your beleif that one person cannot control another person, because they most definitely can. We all have the idea of free will but we do not all exercise it. If you are told what to do you may complain and not want to do it, but if you comply then someone has just had control over your actions. I've seen many vulnerable shaken people become a follower not a leader and they most definitely are being controlled. You say it takes more than a high IQ to reach human enlightenment and I caompletely agree, in fact your IQ may have little to do with it. I believe enlightenment is only reached when an understanding of yourself and others is met, and I have this. My actions and responses never shock me, and the reactions of others are all forseen. I lived through the pain and suffering that few experience and yet I do not blame anyone nor do I seek the pain in others to fill the void. I do not believe that I have reached enlightenment nor do I believe I ever will, but what stops us from getting there is others and your obsession with others and how they view you. You cannot understand the world until you do not need the world to understand you. We live in a society completely reliant on others and so a dependance is built. A sociopath does not have this dependance and so they can view the world for what it really is. Why do you suppose sociopaths are able to control its victims and ruin the lives of willing people? Why can sociopaths condemn one person with such evil and have everyone else think they are a saint? There is more to a sociopaths mind then a missing moral compass and that is something that will never be comprehended.
All my life I learned you should never argue with my mother because you could never win, and she would make life hell.She can be vicious, so much so that you would end up an emotional wreck. No matter how wrong she is, in her mind she is never wrong.Then the silent treatment starts. If you dont crawl back even when you have done nothing wrong the silence continues. She will never accept blame herself, but blame you. If she cant blame she will try to justify. She has always had a callous unconcern about family members, making you afraid of her violent outbursts, shouting, name calling, painful put downs, ridiculing, sneering etc. She is so paranoid and totally incapable of loving anyone. It is impossible for her to be truthful, lying comes easily to her. Whenever she does show any form of kindness or compassion it is more feigned than experienced, and serves as an ulterior motive. She can destroy you verbally and emotionally,she dominates and humiliates. She creates an us versus them mentality, and dare you go against her. When she falls out with you she tries to turn other family members against you, with her lies and deceipt. She has such a deep seated rage, and when she turns on you its like watching her turn into something inhuman. She expects unconditional surrender. She is unable to empathise with your pain but is highly sensitive to her pain or her health. She could never perceive that anything is wrong with her. Ever the buly, she seeks out situations where her behaviour will be tolerated and condoned. She tries to control every aspect of your life, with no feeling of remorse or guilt. So much damage has been done to our family, that we grew from damaged kids into badly damaged adults, some more so than others, some scarily like my mother, and the intimidation goes on. Our home is cold, devoid of all that makes a house a home. Only when she is not there can i relax....
This msg is for Eric. You mentioned earlier that sociopaths are hard to break up with b.c. of how they can tug human emotions. One of the books written on the disorder says that the only way to leave the person is to obliterate all forms of contact (chg cell phone, chg emails, moving). Would you agree w. this?
(Eric) I would completely agree with this. If you have a relationship with a sociopath and you choose to end it they will do everything they can to make you come back. They can switch identities in an instant but cannot adjust to change if it is not done by them. The more prevalent your use for the sociopath was the more he/she will pursue you. The ideal person for ditching a sociopath is someone who does not need the sociopath, unfortunately sociopaths seek out those in need.
(Eric) response to (Me's) questions.
When I said I didn't want to blindly follow the beliefs of strangers I was actually referring to priests and the church, not God or Jesus. I am undecided on whether the existence of God is real or not, I am not atheist but I am also not agnostic. I do not cast God's existence aside because I am a sociopath because it is believed that God has given everyone free will and sociopaths are able to control their actions, they just lack the remorse and care of their actions. I believe there was a man named Jesus but whether he was the Messiah is impossible to know for sure. During his period of time people did not question religion and there was no consequence for invalid writings. He could have been no more than a manipulative man who seeked control, but he could also be the Son of God. If God exists I believe that everyone has been "touched" by him at some point in their life, but his existence in my eyes is once again, very hard to believe. The ideaof God is a paradox, by this I mean for every argument against his existence there is an argument to refute it. One could say there is no God because he lets innocent people die and creates men with no conscience. On the flip side you could say that God enables everyone with free will and never gives someone more than they can handle. It seems that organized religion has created a refute for every atheist that is impossible to prove or disprove. For every theory against God the church has a theory supporting God. If God really did not exist, it would be impossible to prove this due to the church's circle of refutes and theories. God's existence is unknown and can never be known and those who say they believe in him are looking for a saviour and peace, and those questioning his existence have experienced suffering or wear a mask of of ignorance that hides their true self, which is ultiamtely ignorance. By this I mean those saying you are ignorant if you follow the church blindly have ignorant beliefs themsevles because they refuse to acknowledge any of the mysteries of life. I choose not to take either side because both sides show distinct sides of ignorance and stupidity. Have I been touched by God or Satan? One cannot be sure, for the mind will believe anything that puts the body at peace. Those who claim to have witnessed God may have done so to give their life direction or have realized where their path leads and subconsciously believed God has spoken to them so that they can change their life and be happy. I don't know if I believe in God, all I know is that our minds are sophisticated enough to believe whatever will bring them peace.
I left my husband about 8 months ago and met another man on line after posting an ad. He is not good looking or what I usually would go out with but he says, does and makes me feel like no man has ever made mefeel before. I moved to another city for my job and he followed. I was always sure about the speed of everything but he had a plan and never any doubt. He told me when I first met him that his wife had died in a drunk driving accident, that he had a multi million dollars home.... The material things were no doubt atractive but it was truly the way this man made me feel for the first time in my life that touched me. After living with him for a while i found out he was married. His reason was she needed health insurance and he was just helping. Then i also found out after a co-worker did not trust him at all and ran his background that he had never had a dead wife nor did he ever owned real estate, that he had a criminal record for fraud.... long story short, i moved out and here i am....still in communication with him via email, text phone even though he is dating other people from what his roomate tells me. I cannot stop thinking of him altough i know everything about his past. He accuses me of manipulating him, stealing from him and all sorts of other things that I have read on this site...yet, he wants and tries everything in his power to have me. I am so vulnerable and unable at time to resist his emails. I so what to believe he is truly madly in love with me and did and said all those things for love that I blinded by all the black and white evidence.
Can anyone help me see the light? is this man a sociopath?
Not enough information to correctly assume he is a sociopath but more than enough information to know that he is a jerk...Haven't you ever heard the expression actions speak louder than words? So he told you what you wanted to hear when you first met him. Sounds like all of it was lies and I'm not sure what you are attracted to at this point?
Lets see he lied about a dead wife, he is still married, he never owned real estate, has a criminal record, and is currently dating other women yet he wants you....Is there something I have missed? Is this how you think love should feel? If he is madly in love with you then your description of love must be very different than what love is. Love is not lies. He is a user and abuser. You don't need someone to help you see the light, you only need to open your own eyes. It does not matter if he is a sociopath or not what matters is he is not someone who deserves another minute of your time.
(ME) To the above post... AGREED!!!!
I read that sociopaths have a strong need for excitement and they can't stand boredom that's why they engage themselves in dangerous things like breaking the law, do drugs, engaging in violent activities or take serious risks to fulfill that need, but the person to whom I was with and I still think he is a sociopath doesn't do none of those things but likes to party so much, he gets so excited to go to a party or events and enternainments and have fun soooooooo much. He lives to have fun. At beginning of our relationship that's one of the things that attracted me to him, but than I noticed that it was to much. It just drains your energy dry. It is like he have extra energy. If I was not in a mood to go out for same reason he use to get so bored, in a point that I use to feel guilty to make in feel so bored. Another thing is he likes to see violent sports like boxing. He can stay for hours watching boxing and boxing and boxing. Is this another type of excitment that they can have??
I posted a description of my mother. April 5th at 2.23pm. Can anyone tell me if they think she may be a sociopath. There is so much more i could say to describe her. The psychological, emotional and physicial abuse we suffered at her hands throughout our lives. She is an old woman now and still causing havoc within our family. I thankfully have no more contact with her except through solicitors. Does it ever end ?!!!!
(HIM)To the above post. Your mother sounds like she has many of the disturbing traits that are commonly defined traits of a sociopath. It really must have been awful to be raised by a woman such as this. And I hope that you are able to give and recieve love even though you were not given example of this growing up. Often we spend our entire adult lives trying to "muddle" through our disfunctional upbringing. I hope that you have made whatever peace that you are able to make with your childhood and have been able to experience some joy in your life.
If she is a true sociopath it will never end. Although I have read that some do "mellow" somewhat with age. Mellow doesn't mean change though. If she isn't able to feel remorse or love, it certainly won't all of a sudden happen in old age. My understanding of the SP mellowing with age is just that....They slow down a bit.
If you haven't been able to make peace with this maybe you should try and go to counsceling. It would be very hard for a family, especially when the SP tends to turn every situation around to suit them. By talking about this to a counscelor you would be able to try and regain your "reality" of the situation. I think that is the biggest damage that a SP does to those who love them. They twist your reality to the point that it is hard to define what is and isn't real anymore.
(HIM)
To the post a few days ago regarding Erics relationship advice. I agree somewhat that a woman may find herself on a slippery slope if she decided to befriend herself with a sociopath and depended on him for relationship advice. Many of the women who post here that are in a romantic relationship with a SP come here with low self esteem and are battered emotionally. So to entertain the idea that they have found a "nice guy" that is a sociopath would not be a good conclusion. And a real contradiction of terms of what a sociopath really is.
However Eric has always maintained that he is a sociopath and he pulls no puches about that. He does not "pretend" to be a nice guy and has opened up on many occasions of how he himself treats women in a romantic relationship. He has been helpful with his honest insite into how a sociopath mind thinks and reacts. And for many of us he has given more insite on this particular subject than we have been able to find elswhere.
Medical experts have done research on sociopaths mostly in prisons. And they themselves differ on opinions on much of what they have found.
Eric however tells it like it is....The cold and hard truth about things that many of us might have experienced with our loved ones but because of emotional attatchments with them, we have a hard time putting it into perspective. He is intelligent and if not provoked (as many have tried to provoke him at times) has a way of explaining things that might seem "unexplainable" when thay are happening in our own personal lives.
All those things you said about him wanting to win and not being able to feel love and emotions.....Eric himself has BEEN very candid about that. This is confirming what women NEED to hear when they are involved in a relationship with a sociopath. How they percieve it I guess would depend on how willing they are to hear the HONEST truth about what kind of person they are actually involved with.
Eric has never told us necessarily what we want to hear but has more often told us what we need to hear.....The reality of how a sociopath thinks. And we can all learn from that. He helps us to comprehend so many things that otherwise we would be totally in the dark. Being without a moral compass in life is something that most of us can't even touch base with. Yet he has given us glimses into what that might be like from his own personal life story. I don't believe that you could get the same "perspective" into a sociopaths mind if you read several medical journals as what Eric has given us just by stating his own opinions on this blog. I know he has been helpful to me in my quest to understand sociopathic behaviour.
Thank you (HIM)..Yes I got counselling and it helped somewhat. Im one of a large familly, most of my siblings keep their distance from my mother, but two brothers are just like her. I have been threatened by both and no longer have anything to do with them. Except as i mentioned before through solicitors. Of course my mother is the root of the problem. We are a totally disfunctunal family, some abusing alcohol, and one abusing drugs. Thankfully I abstain from both. I have heard some of my siblings say they dont know what love is, which is understandable the way we were brought up. I have feelings, but it took me most of my life to learn to show them, I now can give and receive love. I have come to accept what happened to me at the hands of my mother. I feel liberated now that she is finally out of my life. We will never be close as a family as too much damage has been done. Its like my family are toxic when together. I only spend time with the ones I care about and feel safe around. I know there will never be peace in our family while my mother is alive. She tried to break me as a child, and again in recent years, I dared to stand up to her, now she wants revenge. She wants to win at any cost. Im getting on with life as best I can and like to think I have found some happiness. I am very close with my younger sister, thankfully we have each other. We do worry sometimes, as we feel that one brother in particular may harm us. I have reported to the authorities about threats that have been made against us. My mother and brothers should be on Stage, as they play the injured party so well. They are demons in the home but angels elsewhere. They have let their masks slip on occasion.
My question is, have you any solid advice for me.. M
(HIM)
To M above post..I was not raised in a home with a sociopath mother so I have not walked in your shoes....So my advice would not necessarily come from having had the same experience in life as you have had.
It sounds like you have done some necessary adjustments in your family as far as not having contact with the toxic siblings and that is a good thing! It is also great that you have a sibling that you can relate to in your younger sister. Constantly affirm each other so that you don't feel guilty about disconnecting from the rest of them.
I would say the best thing that you both could do for yourselves is just stay away. Don't even put yourself in the position anymore of having to "stand up" to the behaviour of the sociopath. It just rekindles their desire once again to have revenge....To win, and I an sure if you grew up with this all of your life it has to feel good to not have to deal with it anymore on a daily basis....
It sounds to me that you have done all the right things so far. I am sure it is all easier said than done. However, stay strong and always remember how it used to be, if your ever tempted to have any kind of relationship with them again. They will not change if they are true SPs. Good Luck.
M..(To HIM).. I learned the hard way, and will never be tempted to have any kind of relationship with them again, I know now they will never change. They will use and abuse at will without any regret. Life is too short. The stress was killing me. I feel so much healthier and happier now. Most of my life especially in latter years, I was always searching for a profile that fit my mother. When I first came across the profile of a sociopath, I suddenly thought, oh my god, that describes my mother, and i knew in my heart there was nothing more I could do to rectify things between us. I know for certain now. It helps to talk to people who understand. You dont feel so alone anymore. Thanks.... M
I feel sad for you but, of course you can't relate to that because you don't know the feeling. ... I think sociopaths just had something go wrong in their brains. Like autism. Impaired social interaction. In the case of the sociopath, however, the cognitive is fine. It's the lack of emotion or at least remorse and the exaggerated sense of self importance. ... I went through a divorce in 2002 from an asian american woman (a lot like Danielle Malmquist actually) and after all these years, I have a label for her... SOCIOPATH. ... I actually read a story in Readers Digest about a sociopath who killed his wife for the insurance claim. ... What caught my attention was he that he was described AS a sociopath who was "monstrously manipulative"... I just thought... "MY EX-WIFE!!" ... I was married to her for 20 years and while she always seemed pleasant (1st 15 years anyway) I always sensed a lack of emotion. She even told me several months before before we split that she thought she wasn't capable of loving anyone with possibly the exception of our kids, her Mom and her Brother. ... We got a computer in 1996 and the digression began. ... She became a chataholic. That secretively progressed to full blown internet porn over 5 years... complete with chat, webcams and an audience of thousands of perverts. ... About 17 years into our marriage... I started catching her in little lies... I would find things hidden on her computer (things I would rather not mention... let's just say they were bad) ... things happened like her brother being given 2 tickets to Vegas and wondering if she could go with him since he didn't have anyone to go with him. She even got her brother to lie about it (I'm sure she went with her current husband). ... A computer arriving at our front door made to look like she had won it online in a contest... complete with webcam (from her lover/current husband... I'm sure) ... lying about moving furniture over one weekend with her mother to her step-dads aunts house several hundred miles away (I got a call from her step-dad by chance and asked him about the drive to his aunts house... he said he didn't know what I was talking about)... the lies just went on and on until I got an email from somebody of a video of her performing internet porn with her current husband... I left that day... she got everything and robbed me of years of valuable time with my kids... ... She still manipulates our 4 kids ... 25, 22, 21 and 17... of course she's mom ... they don't see it. ... I've pretty much given up. I'm at a loss and don't know what to do. ... Sometimes I feel like just cutting the whole situation loose but, the thought of hardly seeing my kids just tears me up. Anyone know of ways of dealing with sociopaths without totally moving on?
Oh ... hey ... the above post about the ex (asian-american) wife was from (JIM)
Thanks to the people who responded about my sister. I'm not sure if it's too long now to tell who I am. I posted on Mar 21. In answer to the questions posted right afterward, I have talked to my mom about it but she refuses to discuss it with me. she says that we are both her daughters and she can't get into that with me. It hurts me because I want her to stick up to my sister and defend me but I do see her point. She's the mother of both of us and it's not right to get her to try to take sides or get involved really. I'm not close enough with my dad to talk about it. she hasn't causes my parrents to much trouble partly because she doesn't have that much to do with them and we both don't live that close by. She has done some mean things to my mom but my mom sort of lets her push her around and doesn't seem to mind it that much. one time my sister told me that my dad had cancer and he didn't. she just lied to hurt me. that's just one of her huge lies. thanks for the support in my decision to cut her off. it's true, what the other person who responded said. there's no way i can have peace with her in my life. even if she acts ok for a day or two which is unusual, letting her in my life at all is just asking for trouble. my mom and dad actually want us to get along but they are living in a dream world. it does make me very angry that my parents don't see how rotten she has been to me and don't support me on this. it's weird because after all of the therapy and stuff i've gone to to deal with my bitch sister, this is the only place that i felt people could understand and really "get it". oh, she's a housewife mainly is married with a high school kid. our homelife was not good when we were growing up, an emotionally abusive and physically abusive dad, although he never hit her i don't think. anyway, thanks for the support. I've read a little bit more about sociopaths on some other sites and I'm not sure if she is a true one because she fits well into society doesn't get into a lot of trouble... that almost makes it worse. it's like i'm one of the only ones who can see what she's like although i think there have been others who have noticed it but she only surrounds herself with people who "worship". her hubby is whipped for the most part i think. anyway, whatever she is, she's cold and awful and when i think about contacting her or having anything to do with her, i feel scared and sick. maybe she is a sociopath but one that fits in well to society. there must be different levels of this "disease" also. i don't know. can a sociopath fit well into society and not get into a lot of trouble?
To the person who posted about the ex asian american wife, you have my sympathy. It sounds awful. The following is an article about how to deal with a sociopath ex wife/husband when there are kids involved. It has some great tips. Good luck.
http://www.lovefraud.com/12_leavingAsociopath/sociopaths_and_children.html
Wish I had found a support group back in 1991, when my sister-in-law, who had been distancing herself from us for some time, finally sent my husband a letter telling him she never wanted to see or hear from him again. She was the youngest in the family & had always been controlling. Over time, we were horrified to find out she had told an outright LIE to her parents, telling them that her brother had raped her when she was a little girl! Nothing like this ever happened, to her or her older sister, they were NEVER interfered with by their brother! Over time she has gotten complete control of the family & everything is about her & her daughter. She has 2 divorces behind her & currently lives alone, but has a high-profile job, making a lot of money. To her co-workers she appears to be perfectly normal, as she can put on that 'act' very easily. Right now, I am still very angry about the lie, & the fact it was never talked out or resolved in some way, with the family pretending the problem didn't exist. Then there is the hurt to the rest of our family, where our Niece was kept away from our 2 daughters & we were told that if she was visiting the Grandparents, or was at the cottage, we were not to be there! The last time we saw her was at age 6, then 14, then 18, then in her 20's at various family functions. We do not know what she has been told, & she mostly acts like she doesn't know us, which of course she doesn't. I am also angry at the way the Grandparents & her Aunt have bent over backwards for these two, because they demand so much of their attention & time. My daughters & ourselves feel very rejected, needless to say.
M..My niece came to visit this weekend, now my mother refuses to speak to her. Mother accused her of taking sides. Mother tries to manipulate every situation. As children she began alienating us from our father. She was always accusing him of doing things to her, that i now know, were totally untrue. In actual fact she was doing to him what she was accusing him of doing to her. I know because she has done the very same to me. She was forever playing one off against the other. The lies she told behind your back were disturbing. She tried to manipulate every situation. If you dared confront her, you always ended up a shuddering wreck. Such was the force of her response. She succeeded in alienating us from our father, then she started gradually alienating us from each other. At the same time she had us feeling over protective towards her. Always looking for sympathy. The poor me syndrome, which we all fell for. She was expert at making you feel guilthy. We never felt loved by our mother. We never got so much as a hug from her. Most of my childhood i felt afraid, constantly worried. Mother always took advantage of any kindness that was shown to her. She never took responsibility for any wrongdoing, she always twisted things to suit herself. No matter what, she would blame you. It had reached a point where myself and my siblings could not get along with each other, because mother was constantly causing trouble. Thankfully i eventually saw through her, and realised what she was capable of doing. When i found the profile of a sociopath, i knew finally what she was. My oldest brother had figured her out long before. He moved to the other side of the world. Wherever my mother is, there is conflict within the family. The psychological and emotional abuse was severe. She always wants total control, and over the years used HER house, or money to make us toe the line. That is where my two brothers who are most like her come in, money is their god. They will agree with, and back her in whatever she wants. She tries to make you feel that you owe her, she uses and abuses at will. Growing up in a family such as ours was hell. Totally disfunctional. Life as an adult was not easy. Lack of confidence, unable to form lasting relationships etc.
Sociopaths should NEVER marry or have children. They will destroy you, and feel no remorse. The only way for you to survive, is to get as far away as possible, and stay away....
(Eric) Hi, as many of you are aware sociopaths are pathological liars, great manipulators and often beleive their own lies. I am aware of my disorder and how it affects me but I am curious about how other sociopaths feel about their lies, especially the ones that become lost in a world of their lies to the point where they truly believe their lies. I have never experienced this false belief but several of my family members that are sociopaths or are borderline definitely have this symptom. Many of you may be thinking I just don't realize I am lying because I believe it, but this is not the case. So im curious if anyone has any information on pathological liars in correlation with sociopaths and specifically focusing on the belief in their lies.
I have questions for Eric regarding Jims post with the x wife who believes her to be a sociopath...First is this possible to be married to someone and for the first 15 years not have any idea that the person you are married to is a sociopath? this doesn't seem possible to me to spend that much time with a sociopath and not see there true self until 16 or 17 years later??
And also he mentioned that his wife although she seemed to lack emotion, she did love their kids and her mom and brother. This really doesn't seem possible as I have never heard of a sociopath loving or caring about anyone other than themselves.
Maybe Jims x wife is not a sociopath at all and just became entangled within the dark world of porn and cheating on her husband and naturally that would mean she would have to do alot of lying to keep her cover.
If she isn't a sociopath he might have better options of how to deal with her to see his kids.
(Bell)
I've never understood the phenomenon of believing one's own lies, as if saying it makes it real. It reminds me of the paradox about the Pope being infallible. So if the Pope is in error, the error becomes correct. Am I making sense?
Eric, the sociopaths who appear to believe their own lies can be explained as follows:
1. The sociopaths are better actors than those who exhibit "tells" when they are lying, such as red faces, startled looks when challenged about a story, stuttering, looking down, etc. These sociopaths are like "method actors." They pretend their lies are true to the point that they display no "tells" in facial expressions, body language, etc. Part of the thrill, and sense of winning, that comes from an effective lie would be lost if the sociopaths actually believed them. They don't. They just seem to believe them.
2. If no one comes out and calls them liars, these sociopaths argue that this lack of challenge is indicative of a kind of "social truth," or "truth by the consensus of silence."
3. As long as they insist it is true, and never admit to the lie, the relativistic argument of "This is MY version of the truth, and is just as good as yours," a sort of a Bart Simpson boast, "You didn't see me, so you can't prove it."
I don't think any of them believe their lies, even the ones that betray themselves with "tells."
(HIM)
Well Bell that is a good question.. I guess at least theoretically if the pope makes an error then that error becomes correct. I think anything that can be considered a paradox, both makes sense and does not make sense? Although I have always had a hard time swallowing that anyone of this earth that is human including the pope is infallable. But maybe that is because I was raised way TO catholic and went to one to many catholic schools. So as a child I was unable to debate these types of things so now as an adult, I QUESTION all of it!
As far as the anti social personality or anyone else believing their own lies....I don't know of they ACTUALLY do believe them but for all appearances sake it certainly seems as if they do.
I think it to be one of the most perplexing of all my sons behaviours. I would swear up and down that my son believes his own lies. He even takes it one step further and seems to actually become ANGRY and I mean really ANGRY when I don't believe him. I don't even know how to "take" this anger....I mean is he angry because he doesn't really feel the full "satisfaction" of him "winning" this particular incident? It is portrayed to me though, more as he is angry at me for NOT trusting his word. Even though time after time he has lied to me, he still seems to expect me to "trust" him....I find this to be very frustrating because I can't figure it out....I mean even a 16 year old understand the concept of loosing someones trust because of repeated lying. BUT he maintains that he has never lied to me. This lack of reality just really blows my mind. On a daily basis.
I am sorry, this was suppose to be short and sweet...Today was a bad day though. So I guess I am blowing off steam.
(Bell)
Your son may not be angry at all. SP's will lash out without anger, attack without anger, often suddenly & unexpectedly. Have you been to Youtube and looked at some films of SP's behavior? If not, it is both fascinating and chilling.
I have a sister who believes her own lies, but it's because she has dyslexia and her memory gets twisted around.
Your son sounds like a nightmare to deal with. From all you've said, I do believe your son is sociopathic and that it could stem from that fateful day when he was so young. I wonder if he developed his sociopathy as a way of dealing with PTSD to maintain his sanity.
(Eric) HIM I'm glad you brought up the anger issue when he believes you defy him because you do not trust him. I have had countless times where I have just spoke my mind freely and had people think that I am absolutely furious. I believe it is because a sociopath has no voice inside saying "You will regret this" or "This will hurt the person" and so insults and tender subjects are brought up without hesitation. Normal people would only tap into those topics when they are under severe stress or anger and so when someone hears a sociopath talk they believe they are furious. Another thing I have noticed is that any time I am bored I will strike up a controversial or uncomfortable topic and wait for the other person to say something that I don't agree with and then unleash on them. The boredom I feel is comparable to a 6 year old waiting for their mother to stop talking with a neighbour so that they can go inside, the longer the conversation and exclusion the more agitated and likely action will be taken. Also to the person saying that sociopaths do not believe their lies but are just good actors I would have to disagree. Indeed sociopaths will never admit to being wrong however I have seen family members twist a story in their favour or eliminate an action and truly believe it. I believe that this coincides with PTSD in which they repress a memory or a specific action during an altercation. I have witnessed it over and over and I am positive that this individual buries specific actions in the back of their mind and cannot remember that action. It is apparent that each of my family members dealt with their issues entirely differently, whereas some of them hide from confrontation and repress memories I choose to create tension and bring up past conflicts. I am still very curious as to how each of their minds work but I do believe that sociopaths are born this way and their future is inevitable; this seems to be the only way to understand the behaviour of the sociopath when in comparison to the other siblings.
(Eric) Oh and the notion that any human is infallible is absolutely absurd, every single person possesses the ability to do wrong it is their will that makes them holy, nothing else. The pope is seen as infallible because regardless of what he says or does the church will agree and follow blindly. It is impossible to see the faults in someone you believe is the perfect human in the eyes of God. If you believe someone is better than you than you will not question their decisions because you believe you are on a lower level and so, your decision would be incorrect when in comparison to theirs. You can say that someone's actions are without err but you'd have to be a fool to say that the person is incapable of err.
(HIM) Eric I would like to understand better what you mean by this as I am not sure that I "get it". I understand repressing a memory, especially during a stressful or tramatic experience. And I also understand how a few siblings can grow up in the same household and have a completely different "take" on what they witnessed.
The part I didn't understand was about the lying...In other words if I caught my son doing something that he JUST did 5 minutes ago and he SWEARS up and DOWN that he didn't just do that. Are you suggesting that he believes he REALLY didn't just DO that and so therefor in his mind he isn't lying about it? (hes repressing the fact that he just did it?)
THIS is exactly how the senerio would present itself in our household...For ALL apperances sake it would appear that my son was completely blind sided by what I said (AS IF IT REALLY DIDN'T HAPPEN) and although he appears to be boldly lying to me, he also appears to believe it didn't just happen.
This really confuses me. Does he believe his own fabrications or is that just his way of manipulation?
M...I truly believe the sociopath knows they are lying. My mother whenever found out to be lying, she would act like nothing happened, but if confronted she would get extremly angry. Then she would twist the story to suit when asked about what happened by other family members. My mother tries to manipulate every situation. Normally the LIE is meant to hurt whoever the LIE is directed at. When she was living with us she had my alcoholic brother change the lock on her bedroom door, She did not know i was in my bedroom at the time. To make a long story short, her door became stuck on occasion afterwards. One particular time the door stuck, and mother lashed out at my sister, accusing her of interfering with the lock, my sister denied any such thing, but mother continued accusing her. Finally my sister told her she knew our brother had changed the lock and that the door had stuck before. Mother lashed out, she was frighteningly angry and denied the lock was ever changed. I intervened at this point, i told mother that she did indeed have the lock changed, and that i was in the house the day my brother changed the lock. With that she turned and stormed away.
She always runs around telling family members her twisted version of events, after being found out....of course she will never admit she was wrong NEVER.... I feel sorry for (HIM) having a son so young who is a sociopath, its not going to get any easier, and it has to be so hard, because he is your son and you want to believe him so much, but in your heart, you know....
(HIM) To M....Well that is part of the problem when trying to sort through all of this behavior. Between the "twisted" lying and the TOTAL lack of reality my son exibits it really is hard to see the forest through the trees.
If I were to confront every lie my son told I would be confronting him the entire day...(or time I am with him anyways) He lies about the smallest things to the more important things. Naturally it is the important things I would confront. However it is exhausting. It never goes anywhere. And I still say by not confronting this behavior it is as if I am condoning it.
And it is also very difficult to tell where the "invisible" lines are...In other words between his distorted lies and his very distorted sence of reality where does one begin and one end?
(Bell)
You SAID it, HIM - Dealing with these guys is EXHAUSTING! Exhausting and exasperating. Something you just said makes me wonder if your son should have a brain scan to rule out the scantest possibility of a tumor. He almost sounds like a hydrocephalic who needs a shunt. You'd know about the latter by now, though. But a brain tumor in the right location could explain memory loss as well as convoluted thinking.
(Bell)
I should mention that I worked on a neurosurgery floor for 11 years. I don't mean to scare you.
A tumor is merely not outside the realm of possibility.
(Bell)
It has been an hour since my last post and I've been thinking. If you were to tell a neurosurgeon that your son has had bizarre behavioral changes, more than could be explained by adolescence, and that his memory seems impaired, that should get you a CT or MRI scan alright. Of course, getting your son into the scanner may require some creative "misleading" on your part ... But, if the scan is normal, most neurologists are hooked up with psych specialists, which solves the problem you mentioned with his therapist. Hey, HIM, this is a brilliant plan.
I find sociopaths absolutely fascinating. I see more and more of these people in my life and it's a little scary, yet it makes me feel good to know what's really going on. My father is a sociopath, and seeing him recently reminded me that these people cannot change or be healed. I have dated at least 3 sociopaths, and am now entering the world of female sociopaths, as I realize that friends of many years are sociopaths. I guess that when you grow up with a parent as a sociopath, you are used to trying to please that parent, in order to feel love from them. That reflects to your regular life as you grow up, and you choose partners and friends that fit these same characteristics that you are used to. The females that I believe are sociopaths like to steal and act impulsively. Manipulation and deceit go along with it, but I am wondering if there are any major difference between male and female sociopaths? Anyone know?
(HIM) Bell Tell me more....I have only medicade for him as far as insurance goes. Would I need a referal from a regular doctor to even talk to a neurosurgeon? And to make matters a bit more complicated he JUST got medicade and his regular doctor doesn't accept it so we have a brand new regular doctor that we actually haven't seen yet. When you get medicade now you actually have to choose one of 3 plans and they assign you a doctor under that plan. I guess that is how it works....But the doctor would be a first time visit. How would I convince him as a new patient that my son needs to se a neurosurgen? Forgive me for asking but I have had such bad luck with the ONLY mental health facility in our county that accepts medicade that I would be very willing to explore another avenue.
M....To HIM, its always exhausting when dealing with a sociopath. Growing up with an older brother whom i also believe to be a sociopath, we could never believe a word out of his mouth. Whenever confronted, it always turned into a vicious assault from him. I learned to turn a blind eye wherever possible. It is a no win situation. By ignoring you feel you are condoning, but by confronting, at least in my situation it always turned nasty, and i would end up a quivering wreck. Its worth having your son checked out, to rule in/out any tumour. If given the all clear, then at least you will know for sure what you are dealing with.
To Bell, growing up with my mother a sociopath, i steer clear of anyone i meet who show any signs of being a sociopath. I certainly dont feel that i choose people who fit the same pattern. Sociopaths scare me, i know what they are capable of, therefore i avoid at all cost.
M..Sorry, the above was not meant for Bell, but to Anonymous posted Apr. 15th at 5.03pm. The one who chooses partners and friends with the same characteristics as her father who is a sociopath..
A major difference between male and female sociopath is the use of promiscuity to gain power.
Females know that men are simple, and will trade a lot for sex (money, gifts, etc). They seek out the "underdog" in a group of friends and will make him feel like he's the king until they are done using him up.
Male sociopaths appeal to a woman's trust and love, often lying that he cares about her so that he can feel power over her.
I have lived with a few sociopaths, my younger brother and now my sister is showing some signs too. I have NOTHING TO DO WITH EITHER OF THEM.
I dated some of these types of guys when I was much younger, and since I grew up in a very abusive family, (more sociopaths??) I found that with the sociopathic guys I dated, the best and fastest way to seperate from them is to become very boring, very uninterested in them. Their ego CANNOT HANDLE THAT, AND THEY WILL LEAVE YOU, because they can not handle not being the center of your world, and since they need to keep you involved in their B.S. world, if you become bland and disinterested, they can't really get angry at you because you haven't fought with them, you just don't react. They might suspect something has changed, but in my situations, I just acted like I didn't know what they were talking about. It messes with THEIR HEADS, AND THEY CAN'T TAKE SOMEONE ELSE WINNING THEIR GAME!!! But, NEVER let on what you're doing. I have never had any of these guys try to re-enter my life. I expect it's because they couldn't get the reaction they needed to stay interested in winning the game-
My younger brother has ruined my life and my Mother's, (which made her abusive to ME! Thanks Mom!!!) and to this day, he has NEVER apologized or admitted any wrong doing AT ALL!
This has caused me so much pain and problems, and has taken me YEARS to unravel the weirdness of what I was caught up in with my own family.
I agree with they others that suggest staying away from them, and trust your gut feelings. If you sense danger, or that a person tries to draw you in too quickly with their problems, or pours on the charm, watch out, RUN IN THE OTHER DIRECTION!!!
Boy did you hit the nail on the head. I have a sister who fits this description to the letter. My other family members including 1 of her children will have nothing to do with her. I felt sorry for her and took her in. BIG MISTAKE! She caused such disruption in my home that it was unbearable. She is smart but not in a normal way. She studies people just enough to know how to take whatever peace they have.
She comes on a an abused child, wife,mother and sister but she is the abuser. She is conniving and hateful. She has ruined not only the lives of her children, but everyone who gets close to her. She is evil. Everyone who shows her kindness, she "fixes". Whether is be causing you to loose your job, turn you family members against you; anything. She will spend hours writing or emailing the family members, bosses anyone that she can use to hurt you. The more people do to help her the more they are subject to her vicious web. I appreciated your article so much since she is trying to worm her way back in my life. I am taking your advice to not allow that. Thank you!
(ME) I agree... male sociopaths appeal to a woman's trust and love and make them feel like they care about you... just to have control over you... my SP ex texts about every 10 days or so like nothing happened inviting me to do things... even though I have not had any contact with him in about 3 months... he thinks he will catch me at a weak moment and I will text back... he tells me he misses me... blah blah blah... and he is good... he makes you believe it... if I hadn't figured out he was a sociopath... I would have been drawn right back into his web!!! Thank God I came across this website!!! It has helped me stay strong!
(Bell)
Once you have known a sociopath, you are able to recognize them easily, and you can see that they are, and always have been, scattered here and there throughout your life. You don’t expect a woman to be an SP because they are not nearly as common. The differences between males & females are primarily those that can be accounted for by gender. Little girls learn passive aggressive techniques to manipulate their daddies in cute and sweet ways, but the adult female SP develops this to nightmarish proportions and applies them to the whole world, setting people up sheepishly. The male SP tends to be more direct. This is why I said before that the female of this subspecies seems deadlier than the male. Sex is definitely the female’s primary weapon, even plying their sexuality on other women. Yuck!
All SP’s seem absolutely unable to stop themselves from fighting to the death for trivial victories. I’ve come to see it as a form of retardation. They certainly act like retards with their hystrionics and impaired judgment, even though they tend to be ingenious, and then they are inappropriately calm when a show of emotion is called for. (Case in point, see HIM.)
(Bell)
About checking for a brain tumor, HIM, it may be advantageous that your son has a new PCP so you can start fresh. I wonder if you could arrange to see this new doc alone to tell him about your son’s personality and behavioral changes. A brain scan would be indicated for his short-term memory loss (which you know is faked), as well as his alterations of personality. You don’t want to tell the PCP about any of your suspicions. Leave out the PTSD and the SP behavior. KEEP IT STRICTLY MEDICAL. Do not bring up any psych issues whatsoever.
Some other indications to order a brain scan would be:
Headaches
Changes in vision
Changes in hearing
Sensitivity to light or sound
Communication problems
Difficulty with concentration
Impaired judgment
Defective memory, esp short-term memory loss
Alterations of personality and/or behavior
Your son has enough symptoms to raise a red flag about the possibility of a tumor in the corpus callosum (the forward part of the brain). If the doctor doesn’t suggest a scan to rule it out, then I guess you will need to suggest it yourself. Nowadays, doctors are forced to jump through hoops to get insurance approval, so you must provide sufficient MEDICAL justification for a scan. Medicaid is actually one of the better and more lenient insurers. It seems you have chosen the HMO plan and there should be no special problems with that.
You will need to plan this in advance. I’ll help as much as I can. Please let me know what happens.
I apologize for taking so long to answer, but I am trying to quit smoking and have the jitters. It feels like my brain is itchy and I’d like to positively bite somebody.
(Bell) Oh, and add sleep disturbances to the list of indications.
What do I do when I can't get the sociopath out of my life?
It's my boyfriend's sister. We have the same group of friends, we go to the same college, we live in the same dorm.
She manipulates everybody and she makes my life a living hell.
Is your boyfriend really worth tolerating his sister for? And if you were to marry, she'd be your sis-in-law.
Btw. I've tried to read this blog in its entirety, but failed. You all bore me!
I am a 32 y/o male...been through a lot in my life...school, military service. I thought I knew it all. Only when I started reading several books about topics such as this, and only recently begun to realize the truth I've been missing, have things in my life made a lot more sense now. Its a long process once you've been affected by a sociopath. I've realized FOUR(4) people in my life (2 in my immediate family) are sociopathic. All are seemingly a severe kind.
Its funny, also, that there were warning signs. Sometimes, they actually admit to some ways they mistreat people, without any remorse or compunction. Like they actually enjoy hurting people. I was in denial for a very long time. And even now, I dont want to believe it. I'm presently not in any type of therapy, and reading extensively about this subject has helped me a great deal, but I recommend anyone who has been affected by this type of personality, to completely remove them from your life and get some type of help...any type of help. I want to scream out loud what I know now, but I can't. It won't do a damn thing. But once you realize what your dealing with its a lot easier to move on. Not easy, just somewhat smoother. There are people out there who actually, genuinely care about others.
I wish so much I could have learned this years ago. But its now empowering, knowing whats real and whats not. I've read the book "The Sociopath Next Door" before I read this article. And I was still wondering, again, in denial at first. But the more I read, the more things made sense. I've been hurt tremendously by 3 people who I thought I could trust. Sometimes, I feel like screaming out loud about what I've been through, and to warn others, and to confront these people. I understand now, I can't. For my own sake. I want to say THANK YOU to the authors of the two books mentioned here and the author of this original blog. "THANK YOU".
I (Maria Q.) have a question to the sociopaths: Do you think that a person that fits too well the profile of a non-violent sociopath can be monogamous & financially responsible? Would these two attributes negate all the other overwhelming characteristics? Is any of you self-proclaimed sociopaths, have a good to excellent credit? Has any of you ever been married for several years and never cheated on your spouse?
A member of my family is a SP. He has stolen millions of dollars from friends, family and business partners. He lived it up like a rock star and now is homeless living in a flea bag hotel. Presently, he is on the computer looking for "investors" even tho he has no real estate for those "investors" to invest. All he cares about is himself. He refuses to take responsibility for what he's done. And shows no remorse whatsoever. SP's are not financially responsible. All thay care about is today and what their needs are.
.(Maria Q)..Therefore, you don't think that a sociopath can behave like one, exibit almost all the traits of an SP, as described by Dr. Martha Stout, but pay the bills?
(Bell) Yes, I do know an SP who is financially responsible and who, in fact, worries about the household bills. He has had several wives, natch, but was faithful to them because, as he puts it, women are all the same so why go out for a drink of water when the well is full at home?
wow. I just read "the SP next door". I lived with a SP for 17 yrs. I suspect she's turning our children against me. I am suffering desperately but I can't show it to her, although she knows, and continues to try to manipulate me, and gain info about my life, so she can destroy me, hurt me even more. I'm not sure how to protect my kids. They show her all their love, but mistreat and abuse me. I am sure that they know they are hurting me. They seem to be deliberate in ignoring me while outpouring their love and affection at their sociopathic mother. They don't seem to care a bit about me or my feelings. They don't see that I am the one who really loves them. Their mother fakes love for them, and uses them to get to hurt me. How can I save my children? How do I confront the devil? I know that no one would believe me if I told them a third of what has happened for the past 18 yrs or so. I feel better that I can now have the answers for all the chaos that she put me thru. But no one would believe me. How can I save my kids? They are only nine, and totally brain washed by their mother who is very well liked by everybody, and able to charm therapists, judges, everybody, but me. I am the only person who knows her true nature. I am alone in this. Nobody would hear me screem, just like nobody can see me deteriorate. I am going mad with my misfortune. 'this woman seemed to fall from heaven, but the reality is that hell indeed exists. It is where she comes from. She has kept me burried in hell and is trying to dig me deeper by destroying my dreams, my sanity, my faith in
God and myself, and my responsibility with my children. Can someone give me suggestions?
As hard as it might be to do you have to accept the reality here. Forget the past (hard I know) and take it day by day with your kids. She will never change and will continue to charm her way. (it works for her)
Forget about the relationship you have had with her in the past and have as little contact with her as possible. Follow the LEGAL structure of your custody issues. If she breaks the legal end of it. Report to the court ASAP. Do NOT discuss the issues with her as that will lead nowhere. Don't give an inch when the legal end of the custody isn't followed but DOCUMENT and report everything.
As much as you don't give an inch where that is concerned you will be giving when it comes to your children. Focus on them and continue to be the stable and loving parent. Even if you feel it isn't working. As they get older they will see things in their mother that they do not understand now. They need you more than you know. It really does have to be ALL about them and what is in their best interest.
Your children will become the pawns if you allow her to push your buttons when it comes to them.
Take your feelings for her and go to therapy to help you get through that. That is the only place you will get validation. Because no one else can see what you know to be true.
The validation and working through what you have lived will give you strength to be able to do right by your kids.
Don't put the kids in the position to have to "choose". Because they will suffer in the end.
I am 5 months into a relationship with a man who I find to be the most attentive, loving, gentle and understanding man I've ever come across. I am 42. He's 41. From the beginning of our relationship he would tell me of his past. How brutal it was. (as much as I would allow him to reveal) I couldn't match anything he said to the way I see him. so, I sort of brushed it off and wouldnt allow myself to come up with any visuals of his treatment of other people. Recently I've come to notice he doesn't allow me my own time (and when we are together-space) I am the sort of person that needs to have my own thinking,sorting,absorbing time. He is coming across as needy and its getting to be a bit much. We are making plans to live together. He is very loving towards me. and I tell myself that he's crowding me because he is out of work right now. I tend to feel sorry for him (missing me) we live almost 2 hrs away from eachother. But I fear if and when we move in together..I won't be able to break free of him should I decide it's what needs to be.
He's had a violent past, and that of course is a concern. Even though I see no clue of that sort of treatment of me now.
You didn't say anything ro indicate if you thought he had sociopathic tendancys. However with what you did say was enough to show that you see a red flag. Or gut feeling...
I would go with that before you move in together. If problems can be seen before taking the relationship to the next level it is usually indicating that thigs will get worse and not better.
When you see a red flag WAVE it, don't ignore it.
When you have been victimized by a SP, you may think you are the only victim. I opened up the can of worms and started asking others questions of their experiences with this person. It all came out. Most of the people I talked with were too embarrassed and others did not think any one would believe that such a "nice guy" could do this. EVERYONE wanted to know why he did this. With a lot of research I discovered he was a SP. What struck me thru interviewing friends and getting info on past dealings and behavior of this person, WE ALL helped him cover up his behavior. So much could have been saved if this would have been brought into the open sooner.
About the woman in a 5 month relationship with the sticky guy that might end up taking chunks out of your individuallity. He seems to be too needy for comfort, and he might be manipulating you into feeling bad for him missing you. That's already two strikes in favor of this guy being an SP. Now, what really sets off the alarm is the fact that he told you about his dark past, but you can't imagine him being that way. PAY ATTENTION: run....he is all that he is saying and much more. By saying that he is testing how charmed you are; how deep and involved he's got you. My relationship witn an SP started this way. Everything you said happened to me. But I became addicted to the attention and love that "my" SP indulged me with. After years of being psychologically tortured by this SP, I believed my instincts, the somewhat subtle stories about the SP's bad side and bad past, and all that gooie love and attention was an act to dominate me, own me, and sadistically torture me. GET OUT. FOLLOW your instinct. If you can't believe me, a stranger, at least wait cautiously, and see if you catch him lying. If you catch him lying more than twice, that's it. You don't need much more. Good luck. Let us know.
And always remember: It is very hard to catch a SP in a lie. Always ask yourself: Am I hearing what he is actually saying? Does it make sense? Or am I hearing what I WANT him to say? SP's are great at double talking and twisting words. They are even better at making you believe you are the dumb one because they are so much more intelligent than you.
I had a long and traumatizing marriage with a sociopath who seemed to be an angel at first, and gradually started projecting her evilness, having extreme mood swings, going crazy for just about anything. She turned out to have a heart of stone. She finally stopped acting like a good person, and her true colors are clear to me. But only I know she is a witch, because she behaves like the life of the party and a sweetheart with anyone else, but behind their backs, she rejects them all, judges them all, and couldn't care less about them all. She is really mean. Scary mean and dark. But I still don't understand why she would sometimes cry when watching sad movies. A true sociopath could fake that emotion. I know that because I witnessed her faking all sorts of emotional outbursts countless times. But why was there a need to fake tears when watching a movie? Could it be that she is just a bad and crazy person but not a sociopath? Can sociopaths cry for real? What could possibly make them cry for real?
sadness? Frustration? Physical pain?
I think they cry for themselves. The SP that I know cries when something is effecting him. He was wonderful at twisting it around to his advantage and make it seemed like he cared so much about you the tears were for you. I believe it was because he was frustrated that people were not "falling all over themselves" to help him and/or do what he wanted.
(Eric) I do not believe that sociopaths cry and especially not for themselves. Sociopaths believe they are the most intelligent, devious, manipulative and perfect human specimens. They do not feel sorry for themselves and they do not feel sorry for others. At times of frustration they will never blame themselves, it will always be someone else's fault, or actions that ultimately led to their present situation. I am a sociopath and I do not cry, this may not be the same with all sociopaths but I believe it is very plausible. It is not necessarily that I never feel bad or depressed it's more so that I cannot allow myself to ever show that emotion, even if no one is around. If I were to shed a tear I would be absolutely disgusted in myself and my apparent weakness. Honestly, it would be very hard to go on each day living with that. Sociopaths don't think about others and that only leaves ourselves and our narcissitic personality and ego inflation, and the memory of myself crying would haunt me every day; every time I think that I am indestructable and powerful this memory would strike me down. I have often wondered if I even have the capacity to cry, or if I just won't let myself. At times of despair and pain I have tried to see if I could reach that sadness and I could not. It definitely seems that sociopaths lack this emotion, though we are able to mimic it.
Ok. You don't understand how this works. It's not that sociopaths never feel guilt, it's just not a normal ammount. In fact most sociopaths feel horrible about the lack of emotion and wish they were normal. Also, you make it sound as if they're cruel people who just use you. Not true. Sometimes they are, and sometimes the DO feel. They can love.
As for your quizes: Wow. Really far off.
(Eric) I disagree with you about the guilt and feeling horrible about the lack of emotion. Completely incorrect. The lack of empathy and guilt is what makes sociopaths feel so powerful and controlling and leads to the narcissitic personality. I have never felt guilt or any sadness about any of my actions, I usually regret that I didn't inflict more pain onto them. I agree that they are not all cruel, but because sociopaths feel no attachment to another and do not feel sorry for hurting them, cruelty is the predominant trait they gain. Sociopaths do use people, all the time, you are completely incorrect. A sociopath has no concern for another person and only cares about himself/herself so they will only help someone for their own cause. I also do not believe they can love, the closest resemblance to love is a sense of property. For example they may be very sad and angry if their family dies but not because they love them but because they love the services that person provided them with and it is as though one of their tools has been stolen. You my friend are the one who is really far off.
I disagree strongly with their ability to love. They have no idea what true love is. They THINK they know what love is. They mimic the emotion of love. And SP's are cruel. They don't know they're cruel because they don't care one way or another. Sure they can do nice things for others but it's not because they care for that person. It's only for their own personal gain to make themselves look important and because it's a way to control and manipulate others.
I posted a comment from my phone and I don't see it...did it not go through because I did it on my phone or does it take awhile for the post to show up?
Here is my story...I was living out west and I was scheduled to move back to NY to begin a career that is seasonal in nature. Spring and summer. A few weeks before I was supposed to leave I met a girl and we hit it off instantly. Because I was leaving so soon we spent all of our time together and we slept in the same bed every night until I left. She told me she loved me after 6 days. And I'll add that she is beautiful and incredibly sexy, a recipe that I now realize makes this game dangerously easy for her. I came back to NY and we spoke all the time everyday. We visited each other 3 times in the 3 months I was gone and before I even left I decided to move back to Colorado until my season started again the following year, which is now. She is disabled and survived a literally unbelievable tragic accident. seriously, you've never heard another story like it. Anyway she was scheduled to have surgery out west so that was why I moved back there, to take care of her and so we could be together. She would constantly tell me that we were a done deal and that she would call me her future husband. I believed her. Before I met her she was scheduled to move back to her home state to be near her family but after we met she said she'd move east to be with me but she wanted to spend a few months with her family first. I took incredible care of her during her surgery, I packed and moved her back home for awhile, and I did so many huge things for her. Now this is all so fresh in my mind because it is so recent. I have never loved someone and given more to someone in my entire life. I'm 30 years old, she is 32. We got along so well, our chemistry was flawless and we were perfect together in every way. It was awesome. So anyway, she wanted to move back home for awhile before she came east to live with me and I was all for it because I knew what it meant to her. On the day I left her she told me I was no longer her future husband but her husband. I obviously thought things were cool. After I got here things started getting real shady real fast. She became very hard to get a hold of and she started only calling a few times a week. She got mad at me when I called her out on that saying she just didn't have the time to talk that much which is BS becasue when we were apart the first time she talked and texted me all the time. I just expected it to be the same. She was real sick, but she didn't even call me on my 30th birthday. She texted and sent me a huge gift, but c'mon. 5 days before our 1 year anniversary she called and everything was fine, she missed me, she loved me, blah blah blah. Then the day before our anniversary I got an email from her saying that she left her phone in her car which is in the shop and that the internet at the place she was staying there was down. ummm what!?! She said she loved me and even went as far to tell me that she was ready to go, which I obviously interpreted to mean that she was ready to leave there and come here as planned. I had sent her some great anniversary gifts and a card. A week goes by and nothing, then I get an email saying she still had didn't have her car back (her phone being inside her car) and she still had no internet tand that she had walked back to the coffee shop that she sent me the first email from to send this one. She thanked me for the card, never acknowledged the gifts, but said she missed me sooooooooo much. I'm thinking, ok, it's weird but I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt. 5 days pass and she emails me again, still no phone and no car but she has internet now so we can talk that way and again she misses me. Now I'm emailing her back the whole time and I guess foolishly playing her game. 8 days later she emails me once more, now a month has passed, still her car is in the shop and her phone is in the car, she misses me and she'll call me as soon as she can. That was the last time I ever heard form her :( I eamiled her after that and told her I'd come and see her and no response. Finally, I did what I had to do becasue she forced my hand to do it and I emailed her that I was done playing her games and that I was done with her for good. I told her she lost a great thing blah blah blah and I called her adjectives that I now see commonly on this site: cold, cruel, deceitful, heartless, uncaring and inconsiderate of my feelings. Which is right, becasue I did sooooooooooo much for her and I loved her so much and she made all of these huge promises and then she just stopped talking to me out of the clear blue sky. I still don't know why or what happened, she still hasn't contacted me and I probably don't want to know becasue I know what I suspect. I don't need anyone to tell me what they think about that particular aspect becasue it's not fun to hear. anyway, about 2 weeks have passed since I last emailed her that I'm done. You have to understand, I never wanted to be done, there is only so much one man can take. She shows a lot of the symptoms listed on here, she took a lot and gave very little back, she was so charming and always knew what and when to say the right thing. I even accused her of using me in that last email and she dind't respond to defend herself that she wasn't. I'm torn because I still love this girl so much and although some of these warning signs may have been there before I didn't recognize them or know what to look for. I thought what we had was very genuine. what a sucker I guess. Anyway, I realize that I am probably better off for it but I still miss her so much and I still think about trying to contact her and get her back. I want to give her a chance to prove to me that she is not what I suspect her to be. Another thing is she loves crime shows and courtv and all that stuff. Not fake crime shows, real crime shows. I'm lost becasue this is all so new to me and I cant believe that she could treat me this way, especially after all I've done for her. I still can't believe it but this site helps me begin to understand. I want to write to her and tell her all the things I've done to try and ring a bell and ask what the hell I did wrong. I still think about trying to salvage this even after she treated me so poorly. Another interseting piece to the puzzle is that she has a stalker. An ex boyfriend from high school called her constatntly professing his love for her and even drove cross country to seek her out. I was IN the police station with here dealing with all of this and working out what to do and the possibility of a restraining order and a few months later she did the same thing to me. I seriously did nothing wrong, just about everything right to avoid anything like this. I had her back through everything. Even the last time we spoke everyting was fine and even in her last weak email she still said she missed me. what a mindf*ck this has been and I am sensitive to it becasue I got burned by my last girlfriend and she knew that and promised to never do anyting like that to me. I went so above and beyond with here and she stabbed me in the back in a way i couldn't have dreamed possible. She did mention once that she has apologized to ex boyfreinds down the line for how things ended but I disregarded it at the time. I disregarded so much at the time that now looking back on fits the criteria of a sociopath. It just sucks to realize that something I thought was so real quite possibly could have been so fake. I'm not looking for pity or compassion, just feedback on how to proceed and whether people agree with my assesment that she may be a sociopth. if she is, then I guess reaching out to her would be a lost cause and would only give her pleasure as twisted as that it, but it is hard to let go when I gave so much and had so much invested in her and to have her just stop talking to me for no reason leaving me with no answers as to what happened and why it happened. There is a lot more to the story for sure, a lot, she had so many huge stories that seemed hard to believe thinking back in them, she grew up with a real rocky childhood, she is super manipulative, shes bad with money, defintiely makes you feel sorry for her, takes little responsibility for her problems, has a ton of baggage that will be there for life. But I loved her anyway and accepted her for who she was. I'm just struggling now to believe what I read here and to accept her for who she actually is because I don't want her to be that. IT is getting harder and harder to ignore, but I still feel like I can get through to the girl I knew and for her appreciation for all I've done to get her to realize what she's doing and maybe even to save this thing.
I'm even considering sending her a link to this blog site so that she can read my blog about her. When I was with her in her home state before I left her, her cousin told me she had heard that we were broken up from her mom. I disregarded it at the time becasue she was drunk and I thoght she had to be misimfromed. But she also said that she even told her mom to thank me for moving her there despite the fact we weren't together. I mean, it all makes sense now. I saw that she emailed some guy pictures of herself and food that she had cooked one week after I got here, and then that same guy made a remark on her facebook page about a picture she posted and called her adorable and asked if he was going to see her that weekend. She told me that she told hm to say that in order to make me jealous which I saw right thrugh but she said that he had a long time girlfriend so I foolishly bought it. She also made me jealous "on purpose" one other time when I caught her on the phone at a really strange time and she lied about who she was talking to and she cleared all her numbers off her phone. I was furious and was about out the door but she begged me to stay and apologized for her poor judgement in trying to make me jealous and after awhile I decided to stay. My trust was greatly shaken after that but I had no concrete proof of anything and after a long while I trusted her again. I must be a fool to even think about tyring to get her back, especially since she probably won't even respond to me if I write to her or call her, but like I said I loved her so much and this is so new so it is still there. I wanted all of what she said to be true and I wanted her to move here. I'm obviously in denial about all this. I even saw an email she sent shortly after i got here telling someone that she was back in her home state for good and that she was even looking at places there. She is in the process of going bankrupt from medical bills and in the short email she mentioned that, which would line up with the theory that they make people feel sorry for them. Anyway, this whole thing totally sucks and I miss her and it has been brutal. Especially the way she just seemingly toyed with me and never came straight out and toold me it was over. I mean, the last I heard she said she missed me and would call as soon as she could LOL!! The hting is is that what I want back is what I knew out west but people tell me that that was an act and that this is who she really is. Plus, if she even came back I doubt I would be able to look at her the same way and I'd have major trust issues and resentment for how she treated me. maybe I should just let it go and be happy that she is out of my life after only a year becasue who knows what could have happened down the line. my pain would have probably been that much worse. one of my biggest pet peeves is feeling underappreciated and I feel that way now all the way to my core I thanked her in the last email for showing me this side of her now and not later. I'm just empty and so disappointed that she turned out to be capable of this in the first place.
everyone tells me to stay away from her. my mind does but my heart doesn't. but agian, I guess she wouldnt even respond in the first place but why bother. in some ways it makes me feel better to write to her and tell her how I feel and all and basically say after all Ive done for you how can you be this way, bt I guess if I do that then I'm only giving her more fuel for her fire
sorry to write so much but as you can tell this is eating me up becasue, ya know, I'm normal. we had so many good times together, we got along great and our chemistry was there in so many ways and that is what is so hard to give up on becasue that is hard to find. The only thing I feel like could get through to her would be to remind her of all that good stuff plus all we have been through, and it has been a lot in only a year to see if that rings enough of a bell to get her to talk to me or recognize what she has lost
after reading some more i just wanted to add a little more and then I'm done. first of all she puts up huge walls, second is I've referred to her as independent to a fault. BUT, she does love things. she loves her pets, she loves her grandmother, she loves her mom even though they didnt talk for a few years becasue her mom was physically abusive, and she absolutley loves her grandma, her bro and her sister. so I've seen her show love, and whe her friend died of cancer last year before I met her she often spoke of how it crushed her. and finally, she had a girl roomate in college and they were best friends and one day she came home and all her stuff was moved out and she had moved in with her boyfriend. she referred to her roomate as the only girl who ever broke her heart, so doesn't that show emotiona nd feeling, enough so that perhaps I could get through to her? thanks
I am really sorry for all she has put you through. Don't apologize for writing so much. It does help to talk about it. I understand you cannot fathom why someone would do this to another person. If we just had an explanation why this was done to us, then we think we could fix it or accept it. I do hope you come to a place where you think about her actions logically, with your brain and not your heart. You will eventually begin to do that. What you saw in her, was what she wanted you to see. Look at her actions, do not listen to her words. This was my experience: Once I accepted the guy was an SP, I knew no amount of what I said (or anyone else) was going to make a difference. We all backed off and left him alone. He went almost one year not speaking to his parents and siblings. They no longer tried to contact him. (I believe he actually enjoyed them trying to contact him and him ignoring them. He felt like it gave him the upper hand) Anyway, when everyone resumed their lives and left him alone.....Lo and Behold he has begun contacting all of us. This has been in the last 2 weeks. However, we just listen to his lame stories, and blah, blah, blah. We know what he is and are just waiting to see when (not if) he hits us up for something he needs. Our eyes are wide open now and no one is going to help. If you cut off all contact with her, don't be surprised if she contacts you in a few months. I suspect she might being that she has had contact with past boyfriends for the purpose of apologizing, and the stalker story is interesting. I wonder if there is more to that than you know. It would be interesting to know HOW she apologized. My SP apologizes but it's always followed by why he is not at fault, others were to blame or the classic "I'm sorry, can we just move on" only to STILL keep doing the same thing. A SP will say they are sorry, but will continue the same behavior. A girl SP would be quite hard to deal with, IMO. Women know most men want to rescue the damsel in distress. They want the prince on the white horse to come and most men want to be that prince. I think she played on this with you. That would explain her "rocky childhood." This might be made up or she could have just used this. Do you know, absolutely, without a doubt, with your own eyes that she has had this rough of a life? Or is she exaggerating it for her own gain? The internet is a great place to do a background check. Go into the county she lived or lives. Go into court cases, civil, criminal. Go into the county recorder records for real estate. Search her name just to be on the safe side. I found out alot of info thru this method. Bankruptcy records are listed thru pacer.psc.uscourts.gov She may have no records but you never know.
I greatly appreciate your response...most of what I know are things that she has told me. It's interseting becasue we met randomly, we don't have any mutual friends. I have only met 1 friend from high school twice when visiting here back home and 1 other friend one time. thats it. Her dad died when she was 2 and her mom has been married 4 times! I think her mom is also very manipulative but she always said she learned from her mom how not to treat someone. LOL. As far as her contacting me again I think I may have made a mistake on that end as I would like to hear from her again for obvious reasons. These reasons may fade over time though. But I emailed her a few days ago, 2 weeks after I wrote her that email telling her I'm done, and I said that she should offer me the closure that deserve. I told her that if this was about her wanting to stay in her home state that I understood that and that it didn't have to stand in the way of us being together. I put it all in the past tense. But I did say that I wasn't happy with the way she had handled the situation in the slightest, that I wouldn't soon forget, and that I was sure I'd greatly appreciate the day if and when she ever apologized. I told her it didn't have to be this way, but it was fun while it lasted.
This was before I came across this website. being that I would like to hear form her, obviously now and not later, my mistake was asking for an apology. If she really is sociopathic and her goal is to win the game, then she won't give in to me and apologize ever right? Although I certainly deserve it.
I'm just trying to figure out if I should reach out to her one more time, remind her of all I've done for her, remind her of how good we were together and see if that strikes a cord. but sometimes I realize that she probably remembers, and I can't make her want something that she doesnt want, for whatever reason.
About the bankruptcy, she has dragged her feet with that like she does everything else. It was so weird that she ran out of money and instantly decided to file bankruptcy. She didn't seek out any alternate methods, not even talking to her creditors to see if it could be resolved. when I offered to help pay the creditors to help avoid bankruptcy, she would hear nothing of it. its like she wanted to go bankrupt so she'd have that sympathy story or something. Anyway, she saw her lawyer back in november, and up until the last time I talked to her in march, she still was yet to file so that has been real strange. and that was one of her excuses as to why we couln't visit each other when I left her out there because she would say that she may have to leave at any time to deal with her court case back out west where she initiated the filing process and where she had already paid a lawyer with borrowed money from her mom. it seems now like she exaggerated a lot of things but I dont know one way or the other. that spart of the reason id love to talk to her is because I'd love to try to get to the bottom of ALL of the suspicions that this situation has brought up to me, if that makes sense. as for the stalker thing, of course, I have wondered a lot about the validity of that whole story, but I did witness with my own eyes and ears his relentless pursual of her until she finally wen tto the cops. he actaully threatened her with comitting suicide in an effort to get her to talk to him and she called the cops to his house back in her home state when we were still out west because she didn't want to have that on her conscience. by far the strangest thing has been to witness that, protect her from that, and then have her unexplicably treat me the same way. They dated in high school and have had limited contact until after her accident when he re-established contact with her as a friend but he had a hidden agenda to get back with her. when he told her this, she stopped talking to him becasue she felt used. this is what she told me anyway, but she had a boyfriend then before me so I tend to believe it a little more. so that was him, but I was actually with her, and did all those things for her and she supposedly loved me and wanted to be with me forever LOL and I didn't do anything to set her off like he did...it's beyond puzzling, it really is...
It is puzzling! Their actions make no sense at all but I'm sure they have an agenda and know what they are doing. I assume you have looked up the traits of a sociopath. She must have matched the criteria otherwise you would not have written on this site. However, if she is not a SP it really doesn't help your situation. It would simply mean she has personal problems and for some reason cannot commit to anyone. We are talking about a 32 year old woman. She's a little old to be playing the little school girl "oooh, I don't think I like him, so I'll run and hide." The emails you sent probably didn't mean anything to her. Only time will tell. If she contacts you to apologize, she will have under lying reasons for that. I assure you it is not because she is sorry. Be wary of that. I really suggest that you go on with your life and open yourself up to meeting other women. And please, look for kind hearted women and someone who makes you laugh. IF she is beautiful on top of that then that is the icing on the cake. Some beautiful women can be high maintenance. I think you've learned this. Look for someone who gives as good as they get. For all that you said you did for this woman, I see very little in her giving back. After all, who leaves their cell in a car for that long. It's not hard to go back and get it. Now, I would've believed it if the service had been cut off. Some SP's are supposedly financially sound. The one I know is definetly not. He has filed for bankruptcy twice. Too bad you cannot call her mom and see if she really gave her money for the bankruptcy. Oh, one more big thing...SP's don't really think of the future. They have grandiose plans but don't really plan to get there. They really do not worry about next week, much less next year. But will tell you how they will live in a big house, what area it will be in, where they'll travel, etc. All while being deep in debt.
I feel your pain. I really understand your agony. You are hurting so much, so deep. I am so sorry to guarantee you will be agonizing over that until you are left with nothing else but the reality of being a victim of a sociopath. She surely is one. Yep! She is. She knows what she has done to you and to many others. She also knows that she toys with people. What she doesn't know is how her victims really feel. She understands that her victims are happy at first, and then left to deteriorate in their misery. She will never know the depth of the pain she causes her victims simply because she is not capable of loving. Her grandma, pets, yata yata yata...? Not love. It is an act to support her lies. She uses love and affetion for others to reinforce her lies to her victims. She covers her tracks this way.
So get ready to suffer a little longer my friend until you realize that no matter what you do or say to her will make a difference to how she feels, for she has no conscience. I am sorry. IF YOU WANT TO TELL HER HOW MUCH SORROW SHE CAUSED, AND THAT YOU DON'T DESERVE THIS...go ahead. Do it. Write to her, cry, pull your hair out, screammmmm. She WILL NOT FEEL GUILTY. nO WON;T. NEVER NEVER EVER. Got it? Do the writing, the crying if it makes you feel better. Do it for you. Do whatever you need to do to get thru this misery. You will come out of this. I guarantee you. It might take you a long time. But you will overcome. I actually think that you are quite lucky my friend. In my case, my SP tortured my for 17 years, and she continues to torture me. You got out of it quickly. Plus,, you didn't make children with this pretty moster of yours. I did. You are free to mourn and learn from this. Not me. I will have to bear the sight of my monster for as long as we have our children. You are getting first class education on how to recognize SPs and the taste of their poison. And you are only in your early 30s. You are lucky! You were not left in financial ruin because of her, and you also did not have your character disfigured by your SP. Yeeehhhh! You are relatively lucky my friend. You will be fine. You are suffering now, but you will be a wiser and better person when you come out of this. I wish you the best.
Does anyone have any idea what kind of a reaction you would get from an unknowing sociopath if you informed them? I was considering pointing my findings out to my ex and seeing what that did...
Wow - its taken me hours of reading to get to here and its given me clarity and sanity to my relationship which my daughter and freinds have said is "killing me" - a game of manipulation, lies, control, devious behaviour and the lack of any normal emotion to what everyone else sees as behaviour that no one should suffer and then the most unbeleivable shows of huge love and emotion and promises that never ever eventuate but always have excuses and blame put back on me with stories that are so "in his head" and not even real but are used to his freinds and family to shift blame. Yes the last time it was I love you like no other with all my heart and when i return to the country sort out some counselling and off he went for that month (works month on month off ) in middle east countries - thinking - haha ive got her in tears, made her come to airport and said excactly what she needs to hear this time. Well I m on here as the most recent "other woman" sent it to me when she gave me a google calendar of dates, emails and texts (often exactly like mine and with same emotion) however she said he treated her like crap and always letting her down and not answering phone and "playing her" with excuses - normally how hurt he was over a relationship he just got out of as his ex had stolen his money and abused his daughter (total lies) but it got what he wanted as she was a teacher and loved kids and then the poor lonely boy working overseas. Ive since sent her emails from women i found him lying and fucking to in dubai, yemen, usa, france, nz. I just could never ever ever ever get in my head how a man could fake each and every time the total love and words and emotions and sex he did - NOW i DO - and it hurts so much but gives me sanity.
One of many times is first tme he met this girl who sent me to this site. It was 29th Aug 09 - he first met and slept with her - 27th Aug he had sent me the most unbeleivable coming home email of how he would suffer a life of never finding another women to love him as I had with such qualities and loved me and regretted every thing he had done and wished he could reverse time - 28th Aug -arrived and said could we have dinner - we did, it was fill of words emotions and touch and kiss I probably had told him i loved so he rehearsed and acted perfectly then a hotel room and sex and love that any man would die for with all the emotion even tears as i left in morning saying "I loves you S and will go get that box of wine you love and bring to yours tomoro" texts of love and miss you and thanks all day - however this is 29th of Aug remember - he left hotel and went to prearranged internet date with V and spent day shopping and consumingher with time and affection then dinner and got her drunk and spun his web of poor him stories and how I had stole his money (I had no access to his $ at all and he earnt A LOT IN OIL and merely payed a rent - nothing else and paid and controlled to keep his ex wife around corner 3x as much after 5yr engagement). Anyway - yes he took her to another hotel and crawled into her bed and fucked her while drunk and then purseued and saw her when he felt like it inbetween many many more stories same with other women. A usa lady who worked in iraq with him same year we got engaged and he rung me every frid sat and sun evening hourly to make sure i was home or if out i would talk to him and not with another man - even ringing as i walked in door on landline to check i was actually home - however american girl told me he had 3 in iraq - one was a virgin iraqy chick who he had to do annally to keep a virgin and 19 and 2 american nurses - apparantly they all said he loved them but the usa chik said to me - it was always just sex for him as she heard how he spoke about them to others basically outranking all the other guys there skiting he could have all 3 when they had to resort to masturbation or each other as it was 300 to 1 on base men to woman - the win situation. I did kick him out a year ago when i broke a password and he was sending crazy texts of putting me down and my heart felt something up so i went and found within 2 seconds of breaking password - a french girl who was meeting him next day in Kula Lumpa and at same time he was telling me going to Singapore to do some banking and couldnt wait to be home - she dumped in immeidately by phone and he then rung me like 50 times begging and promising all he would do and his love etc but i continued to pack his shit up and out - IT HAS NOT STOPPED ever since the games - icluding last week he said and did all i wanted to hear and i still cry thinking of the extent of passion and love and the words (again i think ive told him all iwant to hear in past and i got the lot last week and beleived) he even came upstairs 3x early morning 4am as hes driving off to function in another city (hmmmm) saying how much he loved me - two days later - texts start of abuse and blame why our relationship wont work as I upset his daughter (totally in his mind - nothing ever happned she was just a normal girl preferring to be at home with her mum) but he always talked tome like a dog in fron of her so i did argue about this and say i wouldnt tolerate it in front of her but always told her it wasnt her fault but i didnt want her thinking thats how you treat women - he was like a different human being around her - again trying to show her how superior he was to me. We lived in a home that he demanded we buy together as he didnt want to be in my past matrimonial home - however when i went to auction and organised as surprise on his return when we got to doing the paperwork with bank manager as we had discussed he completely lied and said he wasnt buying with me but it was too late for me to pull out so i had to go ahead and do the lot and the shift and legals alone - and he now tells everyone My Set Up wasnt good enough ie. my home not our home - its all mentally abusive crap and im starting to see clearer and theres so much more and my 3 kids can see it much more clearer - sometimes he would walk past my two teenage boys for a week totally ignoring them and making them walk up road to school even though he was driving up to gym - and i was working long long hours and every month when he was home he was on holiday and did nothng - no lawns, no dinners nothing until he upset me and wanted to make up and keep me when he would buy expensive presents and trips and make sure i tell my freinds and family how amazing he was. I suppose im looking for still sanity that he is a SP AND there is no hope for him and I must cut him out - he also is 15yr younger than me - ex army, military and in oil security work - a haven to be dishonest in and has been living and controlling ex wife ever since i kicked out.
I have read from the beginning to some of the middle, then the end. I have cried and I have had the ah ha moments.
I am a Mom of an 18 year old daughter who has taken us through the wringer for 3 years- the last 9 mo's being the worst.
My daughter has not come from a broken or abusive household. I have been labeled as controlling by her but not by her other 3 siblings. My daughter has had a Christian upbringing and Christitan education. She has not been sexually abused. She has suffered from depression on and off since she was 12 and has been on medication steadily for 1 1/2 years now.
The past 9 mo's have been the worst. She has snuck out, brought others into our house, had sex in our house with different people while we have been sleeping, smoked pot and who knows what else, drank herself to the point of .238 blood alcohol level, hospitalized for possible gang rape/sexual assault, sent home from her senior prom due to intoxication and almost wasn't let in due to the "club" type dress she purchased to wear to prom, suspended from school for 3 days, cuts class regularly, and leaves home and doesn't come back for entire weekends.
We have tried to "help" her and she listens but doesn't ever say too much. She never says she's sorry unless the question is posed "are you sorry"-which we all know isn't sorry at all.
She has left us to live with my parents for 6 wks because she said it was too tough at home. My parents were manipulated by her and believed her for a while.
The lies....I cannot even begin to explain how much I relate to all of your stories about the lies. I have felt she has been a pathological liar for 8 years. It has only increasingly gotten worse-it's not even clever anymore. One cannot do detective work on these lies anymore...it would take all of our time and energy. The school, the police, and the family have all been lied by her.
I am hoping for some feedback on my child. I will add more.
She is not void of emotion. She has lots of emotion. She hugs, she cries, she gets engaged with people regularly. I don't feel that she is antisocial, in fact quite contrary. I am beginning to wonder though after all of this reading if it is a front?!
She has been unable to keep a job. She went from being a high honor student to barely getting by this last semester-maybe not even graduating because of the classes she dropped to have a cushy semester.
She isn't keeping friends and she says it's because they are jealous of her because of her ability to make friends easily (guys and girls).
She seeks out our input on her life but doesn't seem to use it. Is it a ploy to just make it seem as if she is engaged and trying. She says she knows she's screwing up and doesn't like making us unhappy. It's really like she doesn't have immediate remorse...it takes explaining and then it's very short lived.
We have had her see counselors, MD's, psychologists...but now that she is 18 we can't have any input. She only tells them what they want to hear I'm sure. We ask her if she tells them about the trying to jump out a car to manipulate a boyfriend, or taking a drink hand made in a hotel room by people unbeknownst to her, or that she lies about everything to anyone. Her response is just not much of anything.
We get glimpses of a very "possessed" for lack of a better work, individual at least once every two weeks and it's always when she doesn't get her way. Our family is dying everyday...our other kids spend more time in their rooms because mommy and daddy are dealing with the oldest one.
I can't begin to tell you the horrors I have in my brain and the nightmares I wake up with. I feel better knowing sharing what seems to be a very dirty dark secret. I know that you all telling me the my daughter is a sociopath or not does not take the place of a real diagnosis-but I appreciate the first hand experiences and voices of caring that I have seen.
To add to this, she was kicked out of the house by her dad last night and we are cleaning up the pieces of how the others are responding. We are moving 1300 miles away from this town in a matter of 6 weeks and she is staying behind to go to college-she refuses to go with us. Unfortunately we have run out of time to help her but unfortunately I don't want to deal with the hurt anymore. I want her to have help but it seems like there isn't anything that can be done. We are dying here but numb to it as well-does that make sense? She texted me on facebook this morning and acted like nothing was wrong after she had been kicked out of the house at 1:15 am. She was only concerned that a potential employer would be calling our home and wouldn't know how to get a hold of her.
Mom of Manipulator
To mom of manipulator,
It seems to me that because your daughter is of legal age that maybe you have a decision to make.
I am a mom to, so I do not say this without thought behind it.
If your daughter isn't responding to help and doesn't seem to want your help and your other children are suffering....Maybe it is time to turn your attention to the others. If all the energy is focused on your daughter and you have none left for your other children maybe it is time to step back from her. This can be very consuming to deal with these types of problems and in trying to save one you don't want to sacrifice the other children.
Because of her age I suggest this. Not to abandon her, just step back.
If she is a true sociopath, this would only be the begining of a process to detatch from her. If she is just going through a wild child phase then you will know this as time goes on.
Personally I think a mother knows. The dark side would have presented itself to you already and I am not talking about the behavior. If you have seen it then you know what I mean.
Take care of the rest of your family. Good Luck
Interesting read, but it would seem as though you take a stand against us, suggesting that we be avoided like the plague. Let me enlighten you with a view from the opposite side of the spectrum, thanks to the anonymity that this computer screen gives me...haha. The idea of Sociopathy is thrown around too often these days, too many kids who hate the world are professing to be one when in all actuality they are not. I myself have been officially diagnosed with Asbergers Syndrome, and while not officially diagnosed yet, I have been examined and found to possess many traits that follow Sociopathy/ASPD. The thing that you must remember about Sociopathy is that it is not an absolute, but a spectrum, as explained in the article. The most pronounced type of sociopath is not necessarily the most dangerous, as they are often too impulsive and short-term oriented to orchestrate anything larger then "mosquito bites", so to speak. They are usually the easiest to spot, because their intentions are usually made clear once they get what they want. I sometimes run into these people, and they are nothing more then a nuisance.
The ones you must watch out for are much harder to identify, as they produce a false "give and take" relationship that can last for years on end, but during any amount of time with them, they orchestrate a sequence of events that resemble something like being stuck in a SAW movie. They are cool, logical, patient, and able to interact with society and adapt to changing conditions with ease. Instead of a multitude of "mosquito bites", they systematically rip you apart and take everything before you have a chance to react. Often times a victim of this will submit to the will of the administrator, most likely due to the annihilation of his/her defenses and a "resistance is futile" mentality. I have only run into 2 people like this in my lifetime, they were both extremely educated people, and understood human psychology like it was a picture book. Delightful to talk to on a philosophical level, but the key is understanding them.
I consider myself to be of the latter, even though the "cool thing" to try and be nowadays is the former. So, while I try to explain some of the basic principles and processes as I myself see them, please bear in mind that they likely apply much more to the latter of the two.
Expectantly, many of us are atheist or at least agnostic. We appeal to no higher order for moral or ethical structure, and in my case take on an almost purely relativistic philosophy. Next, one must understand that we value everything in terms of it's functionality, just as a pencil is useful to write with, emotions are good to incite a desired reaction. We feel emotions, but we are able to rationalize, reproduce, and use them. This is not to say they are always used in a malicious manner, I'm in a committed relationship right now, and should anybody hurt my partner I would have no qualms with disemboweling them with a butter knife and dragging them downtown by their intestines. We simply view emotions as a powerful force that can be utilized. We tend to feel very strongly for a very select few, I for instance only have 4 people who I would make a major sacrifice for, and only one of them is a family member. All other people have little to no value to me, and are almost a nuisance, vermin, and degenerates soaking up resources.
As far as what brought all this on, I for one can attest to being abused as a child. Not by family, but by peers. I'm a small guy, and not being able to defend myself physically I resorted to a mental approach and began playing aggressive and malicious mind games. First it was revenge, but I believe the thing that sets us apart from "normal" people is the satisfaction of producing anguish, confusion, and chaos. It became an addiction, testing my wits against the defenses of others, seeking only the thrill of my newfound game and the satisfaction of victory. Reckless and impulsive I was, but it became too easy, and I started to produce larger and more complex situations, often removing myself from them as to hide blame and become a simple observer. Almost as if it were a domino effect type of science experiment. I must admit it has given me tremendous insight into the mind of the common person, and I must also say that producing a desired response is much easier then one would think. Learning vicariously is a most efficient and exciting approach. Through this I became a very sarcastic person, suppressing any notion of favor or disfavor, and turning everything both within and outside social norms into a joke. I know for a fact I am indirectly responsible for the mental instability of a few people, and may even have had a hand in a suicide...but I cannot say for certain.
So, really, the most dangerous sociopaths are the ones who are either blameless, or are only blamed after the fact, often leaving behind little to no conclusive evidence. We are psychologists in our own mind, studying people and their behavior...more often then not seeking internal satisfaction from a predicted response then for material prosperity. Many of us are nihilistic and/or egoistic, find no purpose in life, and live for simple pleasures such as those described.
In my experience, the easy way to tell the difference between a true sociopath and a "wanna be" is to somehow catch them off guard. A sociopath will rationalize a situation and develop a logical response, while a "wanna be" will simply be confused and often times break into conformity.
also, since I didn't elaborate on my life standing, I would like to say that I am satisfied with my life and have no major sources of stress in my life, just pay the bills every month and put food on the table, just like everyone else...so don't just on the depression bandwagon. As far as the trauma of early childhood, I am actually acquainted with many of my former "abusers". Some through my "interventions" as one may call them, some on their own accord. Some people even credit me for making them stronger through suffering, but I cannot verify it and can only take their word for it.
I'd also like to say that I have quite a vivid imagination, often times focusing on apocalyptic events and what one may call a very disturbed theory of worldwide anarchy. Death, destruction, chaos, and confusion are all very fascinating concepts that are quite stimulating...but you can't really say or understand what it's like until you've strangled something bare-handed simply for experiment.
After all the things you said in the above post, you are surprised when people are told to avoid a SP like the plague? What you don't get is, it is not normal for a person to screw with other people for "amusement." SP's are dangerous. You have a significant other. It would be interesting to see if you control that person in any way shape or form. I bet you do but see nothing wrong with it. And a person can't be a "wanna be" sociopath. It's either there or it isn't. I believe it depends on the age and experience of a sociopath as to how "pronounced" his trait is. A young SP under his parents wing cold very well be like "mosquito bites." But an independent adult SP is much more dangerouse as he can cause much more damage due to his need to put himself above all others and meet the standard of living he feels he is entitled to.
To be honest, my opinion on the matter is that if one chooses to stick around a sociopath, more power to them. That is a choice they make. Personally I enjoy it when people find themselves in a negative situation but their psychological defense mechanisms and perhaps an "inner good" idea is keeping them attached. It happens everyday, to many people, and while we are considered a threat to the common person, I see us as no worse then a paranoid, controlling, or abusive partner or friend that is not a full blown sociopath.
I do attempt to exercise control in my relationship, what person doesn't? However it is reciprocal to a point, and I try to monitor it very closely. It's a complex relationship that normally would have met a quick end but somehow years later we're happier then ever, I attribute most of that to the sacrifices both of us have made for each other.
What I meant by a "wanna be" sociopath is one who professes to be a sociopath but in fact shares limited similarities and professes to be one simply to sound cool or fit in, I'm sure you've run into someone who professed the condition to be a "tough guy".
To briefly explain the two examples I mentioned above, which I consider to be sociopathic; one is reckless and impulsive, very short-term oriented. Seeks instant reward and jumps from person/item/situation to another to fulfill short term desires. The other is patient, logical, and in control of a situation. They orchestrate complex situations and play the psychological equivelant of guerrilla warfare. The rewards are usually few and far between but much greater in magnitude, and proportionally worse for the victim, who is often left devastated. This fits your description well, as some people adapt well to change in life circumstances and thus become potentially more dangerous, but I have met a few that are still stuck in the childhood stage, so to speak.
Nathan C.
So what do you get from your relationship with your partner? What is the need that this person fills...
And how do you usually end a relationship? TRUTH.
To be honest, this is the first actually committed relationship I've had. Most others would last 3 or 4 months at most, often times because they saw that I was milking them for money and sex. What these people did not do was show a sense of individuality, or provide any sort of mental stimulation, I simply saw them as a walking piece of meat. My current relationship involves much more give then take, but we often bargain for time, money, food, etc...sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. Not only that, but my partner is very intellectual and a great critical thinker, one of my main attractions to her is the ability to create logical arguments against the things I do, and often times keeps me in check with these arguments when I neglect to rationalize situations myself. She's also very physically attractive (at least to me). In other words, she fills my need for conflict and keeps my life from becoming stagnant...and the sex is a plus too, haha.
Despite all this, I often find my mind wandering and fantasizing of other women, and I often have dreams of intercourse with strangers. I stay faithful to her because I know I could never find another person like her to take the place she holds so well, so in essence the action is desired, but the consequence is far more negative. I often question my willpower to refuse another woman should she proposition me, and my defense mechanism is to make myself as repulsive as possible to other women. So far it's worked well, but my faith has yet to actually be tested.
Nathan C.
do you have any long standing relationships with people. such as your family or an old best friend?
Once people no longer fill a need for you do you let them go?
And what kind (degree of)of abuse did your peers inflict on you? Again the nirture/nature is a real puzzling question to me.
As a matter of fact, there are two people that have been around for quite some time that I consider friends. My best friend since the fourth grade, and another that I met when I was 16. I rarely talk to them since I'm living 900 miles away now, and most conversations are brief, but I still consider them to be friends. I always looked up to my best friend, and still do, he's one of those guys who's sharp, witty, and independent. Has all the bases covered in my book. Up until the end of high school we always had friendly competition and helped each other grow. My other friend is kind of a pushover, with almost no self esteem, but I can count on him when needed and have several times.
There wasn't very much abuse in my early childhood, that I can remember. I knew my father was a hothead and often spanked us for disrespect, but at the same time promoted free will and very few actual restrictions, almost to a fault (i.e. "go play in the street and see what happens."). He comes from a very authoritarian, abusive, and controlling family, and I believe he did not wish to be like that. I do know he was dishonorably discharged from the armed forces for a personality disorder, but as far as I can tell it was simply rebellion against authority. My mother, on the other hand, believed the sheltered life is the best life and there's no such thing as spoiling a child. They often fought, and had a tremendously rough divorce when I was 7 years old. During this time I didn't "fit in" like other kids, but I wasn't a victim either. Among things that interested me even as early as 5 years old were abstract constructs, sex, mechanical systems, and an obsession with functionality. I have always been very intelligent, and the traits of my early childhood were a large factor in my diagnosis with Aspergers syndrome.
Adolescence was where things got rough, my first year in junior high I was the perfect target for the school bullies. Everything from slanderous remarks about me, my family, my friends, etc... to random acts of humiliation, all the way to violent outbreaks. I've lost count of how many times I had to sit in the bathroom waiting for my nose to stop bleeding. The school system did nothing about it, in fact one time I attempted to defend myself I was cited for "disturbing the peace", and when I attempted to strangle myself in class with a chain the teacher simply laughed and said I couldn't do it, everyone else just watched. I started to fight back with violence, at which point my mother removed me from school and placed me in an institution, I was considered stable and released in a week without any changes.
After that I was home schooled, and had all day to sit around and dwell on the past few years. I was depressed, angry, and wanted nothing more then to watch the world burn. It was during this time that I believe I did change. I became very nihilistic, saw no meaning in life, and believed emotion was a human defect. I took on the "survival of the fittest" approach, believing that those who were weaker should and would be left for dead. No remorse, no pity, they weren't worth the wasted time, even if the one left behind was me.
During this time I also conducted disturbing "experiments" on animals, including reaction to strangulation, environments with a predator, and many other "fight or flight" situations. Everything from insects, rodents, chickens, and household animals...the functionality of cannibalism as treatment of the dead among small species, the surrender during the moments near death, and the overall stoic nature of many animals to injured or fallen members of the species led me to believe that survival depended on a lack of compassion, guilt, and any other emotion that hinders our ability to rationalize. I succeeded in removing the vast majority of emotions, or at least the ability to feel them, from myself through conducting acts like these, then analyzing them for days on end. I would also sit outside or in public places and watch people, their faces, their reactions to certain things, their habits. Whenever these notions showed through in day to day life, I always wrote them off as a joke, and people believed it the entire time.
Perhaps my father's stoic and commanding lineage combined with my mother's intellectual and manipulative lineage in just the right fashion....maybe my condition was created by myself through years of hate, blood, and self conditioning. I cannot say for sure, but to answer your question I believe that at least in my case, nurture has the majority stake.
Nathan C.
Do you believe yourself to be a dangerous person to be around?
When you show revenge to another what kind of things did you do to them?
(Eric) Nathan are you considering yourself to be a sociopath? I have not read all your posts because honestly they are quite boring but I can tell that you are not a sociopath. Sociopaths are not the weak ones being bullied they are the ones constantly depleting others self-esteem. You may have some sociopathic traits but I believe that everybody inhibits a few of them and yours seem to be brought on because of your depression and constant seeking of approval and acknowledgment. Your condition is most definitely treatable but it seems you have crossed the line into believing you are some type of monster instead and not a man becoming the monster to get rid of the fear. By this I mean, when people are consistently put down and abused they become the monster so that they are not scared of the monster. You have put yourself in a position to try and show others and justify to yourself that you are strong and lacking epmathy, but you are not. You are a weak willed man, trying to grasp onto any revelation that makes you feel important, but the truth is that you are but a mere piece of shit in a world filled with flowers. You seem to have intelligence so you must know that if you drop your whole "I don't care about anyone" charade positivity will flow your way. You became an outcast in school and did not like it so why have you decided to inhabit this trait and let it rule your life. You are not a sociopath, no you are just another boy trying to tell himself that he is a man.
Eric,
Do you suppose that Nathan and yourself are just at different ends of the spectrum of sociopath behavior?
And one by nature and one nurture?
Isn't that possible?
anonymous - I believe that every person has the capacity to be dangerous, and that the danger each person possesses is relative to the victim(s). In the case of a sociopath, he/she is only as dangerous as the people around them let them be. For instance they would pose no threat to a person who saw their motives and didn't play along, as opposed to a person who was caught up completely in the game. As far as revenge is concerned, at first it was petty, direct crimes like destroying property and childish things like that. After a few run-ins with johnny law I went to a more indirect approach and started turning friends against them, setting them up for humiliating public displays, and things like that. Nowadays I don't get people back unless they have seriously wronged me, I've found that burning bridges is never a smart choice, and I have many idle relationships with people that I usually resume only when I need something.
Eric - I see your point, but not quite how you got there. For one thing, you claim to be/have been diagnosed as a sociopath, correct? If so, it seems as though you project your idea of the condition as if it were a universal truth...not that it's wrong to do that, I do it quite often as well. However, hasty generalizations are rarely close to the truth. I have given only a brief overview of major events in my life, with minor details. Hardly enough to come to a solid conclusion on.
Lets do this, lay down what you believe to be the fundamental and essential components of a sociopath, and how you would go about diagnosing them. Is a lack of empathy and a manipulative way of life the only criteria for the condition, or is there more?
As far as your reply, correct me if I'm wrong but your basic premise is that I am not a sociopath, but rather I have constructed a personality that mimics a condition such a ASPD after being rejected by peers. With this, you assume that I was "normal" prior to my rejection, which is anything but the truth. Your argument seems to assert that there is no "becoming" a sociopath, that you are born that way. Is it then, a physiological condition with psychological effects? I believe you'll have to answer that within your criteria for diagnosis. Your previous posts assert that the condition is genetically inherited, but that seems to be based on the fact that only select members of your family possess the trait under identical circumstances. There is an underlying assumption here in that similar people will behave alike under similar circumstances, unless they have inherited a trait that prevents that behavior, correct?
Here's my question: My dad is 77, has been married for about 10 years to someone who, by everything I've read, is a textbook sociopath. But here's the hardest part: While just about everyone else agrees she's a nightmare (including her own family), my father won't allow himself to believe it - he appears to have some big denial issues himself. Any suggestions for getting him to open his eyes and rid our family of this ongoing curse?
(Bell) You might try doing what I did. Print out a copy of the characteristics of a sociopath found on the internet. Just google "sociopath" and you'll find them. Give it to your Dad.
I was the victim of a woman sociopath. She is the head of a nonprofit group, and I was a volunteer for that group. She is also very attractive. At first it seemed like we became friends, but after a few months, I started to notice that she exhibited all of the traits described in your article. I also noticed that she was a master manipulator, usually of men, and I wasn't the only one she manipulated. Other women seemed able to see through her right away, but for men, it usually took a lot longer. Although she was involved as the head of a non profit helping other people, she really wasn't interested in helping the people, only in the attention it would bring her to help them. For example, she was much more concerned about TV or radio interviews then the purpose of the interviews. Even though she was in her 50's, she bleached her hair and tried to dress like a young girl in their 20's. Another disturbing habit was her need to "compete" with anyone she saw as an obstacle, such as other non profit groups or volunteers for other groups. She constantly trashed people behind their backs, and had not the slightest hesitation to spread the most damnable lies about a person. She also derived pleasure out of humiliating other people and treating them with contempt, even the most faithful of friends, because it made her feel superior. She would always take, but never give back, and it would get so bad that she would expect you to give everything you had, and treat you in the most humiliating way if you didn't jump at her commands. She was very disorganized and impulsive and never planned anything. When I had finally had enough, I resigned from the non profit group and never spoke to her again, although she tried at least 30 times over a two month period to call me or email me with crying, guilt ridden pleas to come back.
(Eric) No, I do not believe this is even remotely the case. Regardless of the sociopaths origin whether nature or nurture the symptoms and behaviour are very similar. Many people who suffer tragedies and sufferings hold in their anger for years until they snap or slowly cross over into the monster they once feared. These people still have feelings but they are choosing not to ackonwledge them but they can at any time resurface. These people will also be the self proclaimed sociopath wanting attention from others and having the need for others to acknowledge them as someone frightening or damaged. Sociopaths do not want or need this, in our minds we are the perfect specimen, we do not care about your opinion, only our own. The person trying to prove to you how bad and scary he is, is in reality a scared little boy. Nathan's insecurities and vulnerabilities bleed through the pages he writes, a sociopath cannot allow any weakness to ever be shown and will never admit to ever having a weak or vulnerable moment. A sociopath will always attack anyone challenging or confronting them just as any alpha male will, and the weakness will never be revealed. Nathan's weakness or human qualities are present in his writings and I'm sure deep down he's praying that this phase in his life passes, a sociopath prays he continues this lifestyle.
(Eric) Nathan I will reply to you another day.
surely you two so called sociopaths have better things to do and others to control manipulate and destroy than play on here and pretend your worse than each other - PLEASSSSSSSSSSSSSE - it sounds like you both are dillusional cause i know my sociopath partner would never ever ever waste his time on here or bother about who was worse or better as he knows hes the biggest dick in the world and proud of it and wouldnt bother with this crap - leave this site for those who are trying to deal with pain and greif and move on
RUNNNN............
(Eric) Why would people listen to you, your broadcasting that your involved with a sociopath who clearly abuses and breaks you down every day... A sociopath's life is based on playing games so why are you confused that they would do this on the internet? Also at what point did I say that I was more evil or worse than Nathan? I suggest you continue your abusive relationship so that you will always know where your place is in this world...
I am convinced after 14 yrs. of relationship/marriage and 4 children that my spouse is a sociopath. I was too young and stupid to see it (or want to believe what I saw) when we got together. He was 18 yrs. older than me. I should have noticed how he constantly needed to criticize me and others. Except when he would compare me to his old girlfriends. He acted as though he was just thinking objectively but it tore my heart out. From there the verbal and physical abuse became a way of life. I was not expected to have any interests of my own, if I did, they were not worthwhile. They were a "stupid waste of time." He relied on me for constant entertainment. He was (and still is) quarrelsome and antagonstic. He did support me on my way through school because he had the foresight to see that I would earn a decent living to support him (he doesn't work, never has, never has had to.) Several times, I would leave and run away, but he would feign being so pathetic and vulnerable my heart couldn't let me see it was just a strategy. The sick thing is, even after I knew it was just a strategy, my heart made me come back because I loved the old b%$&^%#. His MO was (and still is) sympathy, and he was good at getting it.
I'm not an attractive woman and this has always bothered me greatly. In fact, I've been diagnosed with BDD. He used to love to rub it in my face. He was ashamed for his family to see me, he said they would probably say, "all the women in the world and you are with that one." I guess my spirit is tougher than I give it credit for, because I've come to the conclusion long ago that it isn't him who is too good for me, it's me who is too good for him.
His detestable disposition has affected our children. He plays favorites and rejects one in particular. I hate myself for putting up with this but the alternative to leaving seemed too hard.
I tried to figure him out for years. He was born in the year of the monkey on the Chinese Zodiac and strangely enough, the characteristics of a monkey are similar to a sociopath. Funny, too, that tigers and monkeys are supposed to avoid each other at all costs (I'm a tiger, lol). The child my husband has treated the most poorly is a tiger...coincidence?
I've got my own issues and I'm not perfect or even easy to get along with, but I've got a big heart where he has none. Well, he seems to care about certain people and certain things, but it still isn't healthy.
Being with him has made me a very bitter, cynical person. I believe those proven to be sociopaths should be burned in a wicker man. Of course, a sociopath will ask what happened to my big heart? This is because they don't understand what a better world this would be without them.
As my husband has gotten older he has mellowed in some ways, but he is still a vile jerk who is unbearable at times. I've started to give him back a little taste of what he has given me, but it is futile to try to show him what it feels like to be mistreated. He doesn't love anyone, he can't even love himself. He really is pathetic, but not in the way he thinks he is fooling everyone.
What is BDD? It breaks my heart you think you are an unattractive woman. This does not mean you have to settle for someone that treats you this way. Wouldn't it be better to be happy alone, than to be miserable with a partner? You know what he is. Please for yourself and the sake of your children, get out of this relationship. Go to a shelter for abused women and talk to them. (I'm not saying move in, just make an appt. to talk to a counselor) You deserve better and so do your children.
(George Cromwell III)
Eric, you're still on here... I understand feeding your ego on this blog because these people are easy targets. But everyone here must have an average IQ of 80, 90 tops. Don't you feel exhausted reading these muddled illogical bleak self imprisoned lives? I came here for a laugh(again), and nobody disappointed.
A psychopath doesn't hurt anyone, they just enable the stupid to hurt themselves. Its what you "victims" want? Your actions speak volumes about the self-deprecating and masochistic tendencies you have.
www.sociopathworld.com
http://www.sociopathworld.com/2009/05/sociopaths-loss-and-fungibility.html
Sociopaths, loss, and fungibility
i have been thinking about loss recently. i have always thought that i treat people as being more fungible than they are used to being treated. i once warned a friend that i was likely to use her up like a paper napkin and dispose of her. i have always understood what a "friend of convenience" meant to me, and treated those people appropriately. i am unable to care for those people unconditionally, the kindness i show them is directly proportional to the value they have to me.
when i was younger, i was as quick to make "friends" with inanimate objects as they were real people. one particular "friend" has stuck with me through the years. he is as valuable to me as most actual friends, and perhaps even some family members. i lost him once and was able to reclaim him only through hard work, brilliant problem solving, and luck. since then i have been very careful with him, until recently. i was scheduled for a long trip and wanted my friend to come along, but was worried for his safety. i started searching for a substitute on the internet and chanced upon his twin available for sale. when substitute friend came in the post, he looked different, and i still favored my friend. quickly, though, they have become surprisingly interchangeable to me. whatever my faults, i have always considered myself a rather loyal person by nature (cancerian?), but here i was discarding a lifelong friend for someone who just fit nicely into the mold. but am i so different from empaths? one of the empaths in my life said the following about loss:
"one of the saddest things about death is that the world does go on, and you feel like that devalues the person that they were. eventually even we move on, we fill the void that was left with other people. we have to, it's human nature."
however, she admits that void fillers won't ever be perfect. she remembers particularly her mother losing her parents, how painful that was, and how she was never able to find that type of relationship again, not like she expected to.
"people come in and out of our lives a lot. that's the nature of the beast. for some reason in our culture, only family sticks around, and even then certain family members will drift apart."
death has never made me sad, maybe i just have never cared that much about anyone who has died. i have lost people in other ways and been sad, but am i really sad for their loss? or am i upset that they have left me? angry at myself for failing to keep them around?
(Eric) ahaha George you make a great observation. I actually did not visit this site for about 2 months but then I came back and scanned my name and saw a few responses. This website has lost its amusement for me though, and yes it is quite perturbing to read through the weakness that bleeds through these victims... so I do not. It really is hard to comprehend how people can be persuaded so easily to a life of being miserable, isn't it? These people voluntarily hand their happiness and freedom to think over to sociopaths/psychopaths or whatever you refer to them as, and this sparks my interest. I believe the IQ mean may be below average, however I also believe that their emotional side disregards and overwhelms their rational side. By this I mean perhaps we see their stupidity striking us because we have not experienced their emotional side. Their emotional responses intrigue me because of its power over the brain which arises the subject of the mind body split problem. I believe that the reason we have such control over them is our intelligence of course, but also our lack of similar emotional responses. This then arises the perplexing topic of innate knowledge and its similarities to prodigies. For instance, how is it that a child who has never played piano has the ability to write an entire symphony at the age of 7 and how is it that a child of the age 7 can have such a complete understanding of human behaviour and emotions without ever experiencing it themselves? So to compare a sociopath to a normal functioning person is ludacrous because our developed thinking far surpasses the comprehension and understanding of theirs. Are we incredily narcissistic, yes, but I believe we have the right to be. I am also interested in the sociopath's desire to cause bodily harm, I mean this desire is so large that I have put my university education on hold to join the Armed Forces as an infantryman. This seemingly innate desire really does spark some interest. But I suppose you know the answer to these questions ahaha...
(George Cromwell III)
Not all sociopaths want to cause bodily harm. Causing chaos and/or gaining control is driving factor for all of us. Violence is an outlet/tool. Different strokes for different folks. If you have any questions for me, go for it.
(Eric)
Yes, I'm aware that not all sociopaths display this characteristic but it certainly does encompass a significant amount of them. It's possible to say that this is a response to their abusive upbringing however I'm curious if there is a more definitive answer. Also, what are your beliefs or skepticisms about empaths, those that are believed to be able to personally feel the pain and suffering of others?
(George Cromwell III)
I think the consensus is that environment can contribute to being more violent, but isn't the reason. It's a mixture and nurture and nature if I have read correctly. I don't think anyone is going to give you an answer you will be satisfied with. Ultimately I would put those kind of questions behind you, they will only serve to frustrate and deride any evolution you might experience.
I don't have any skepticism about empaths. Skepticism is born out of uncertainty and doubt, which I have neither.
My belief is that reading the ebbs and flows of social groups and individuals is an art. My quick thinking lends credence to my actions. I work constantly to find situations where I can sow seeds of discord. It's my entertainment and at times a way to distract attention away from myself and move up the ladder in my social/work environment. I meditate constantly to give me extra focus and edge, I also stick to a workout routine. I want to be physically and mentally on top. In the past I would put myself into situations similar to the people around me to experience what they do. I can never feel what they feel, but I did take notes on how others reacted when I was in the first person doing what I normally observe from a third person perspective. I've studied NLP, psychology and sociology extensively. I've also studied religion and cults to learn about polarized mentality. I've lived a lower middle class to upper middle class life and taken notes on both social structures experienced in those groups. My goal is to reach the upper strata of society and see what kind of chaos I can cause there. Ultimately, I guess I'm trying to say that empaths are tools of my furtherance of goals and pleasures. I realize there are those with power and those capable of servitude.
I am involved w/ a great woman that has what I believe is an SP for an ex.
I also believe that her 13 yr. old son is an SP.
What would your advice be for me?
Also, would you limit the children's access to the SP father?
As a parent of a minor SP, what would you recommend doing w/ the kid?
Just because you don't like the kid or the father doesn't mean they are SP's. Diagnosing people as SP is not a convience for armchair psychologist with an agenda.
Great! Let me get this straight, I read the literature, the diagnostic criteria, & (much like the others i've read here) decide there is some merit in my suspicion. I ask what I believe are reasonable questions (given that there is a strong genetic component) and so far I get sarcasm and judgment. Is this column legit, or just about anonymous losers spouting off.
I'd like someone w/ some some credibility and sense to give me an honest and educated answer please.
you gave zero details. you could be the psycho for all we know..... you shouldnt diagnose a kid for that matter.. or an ex of your current lover. agenda much?
Anonymous with the great woman who might have an SP for an ex:What you should do is educate yourself and educate your woman. In the top left column of this page are the two books I recommend. And then take steps to protect yourselves from being harmed. Whether or not the ex and his kid are sociopaths, if they have a tendency to use or abuse or take advantage of you, the best thing you can do is be aware that such people do, in fact, exist, and prevent yourselves from being their victims.
Depending on how determined and persistent the ex and his kid are in taking advantage of you, you may have to do very little to protect yourselves, or you may have to go to great lengths. Do whatever you have to do to keep them from ruining your lives.
Mr. Khan, Thank you for your reply. I've read Ms. Stout's book, and will look into the other. Much appreciated.
Adam how can you hand out anecdotal advice? This person hasn't given any specifics. You don't know if he is being taken advantage of, or more likely, experiencing the angst from a disenfranchised ex and child going through a difficult transition. I understand you encourage people educate themselves, but ultimately what you espouse is paranoia. Paranoia that is based off misinterpretations and can ultimately perpetuate more damage in the long run. You like most typical "self-help" types seem to have underlying issues, thus your drive to "help" others and satisfy your ego through that avenue.
What gives you the right to write an article on sociopathy and hand out advice essentially presenting yourself as what? An authority? It seems everything you write on this subject is based on a couple of books you have read and your interpretation of them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but correlation does not imply causation.
What is it you say? "Encapsulate and repeat." No critical thinking needed there.
Learning more is usually a good first step, and those two books are the best available sources. If you have other or better sources, please let us know about them.
And it is never a bad idea to protect yourself from people who try to take advantage of you.
I think the biggest insight people get when they find out about sociopaths is that such a person exists. Most people have a hard time believing it. And usually they only find out about it AFTER they have been used and abused by one.
The exact diagnosis of a sociopath may be important to some people, but for someone whose life is being ruined by someone, "being really sure" of a diagnosis before you take steps to protect yourself is just foolish. Everyone has a right to protect themselves from a manipulative, abusive person, regardless of how closely the person matches the profile of a sociopath.
Your are right, people do have the right to protect themselves. They don't have the right to use sociopath as radicalizing factor behind them taking action against someone they think has wronged them. Motivation against that person should be based on the merits of their action and not a very serious diagnosis not performed by a trained clinician. Even Dr. Hare has expressed his worry over the abuse the sociopathy diagnosis being used for individuals ill thought out agendas against other people. Many of the checklist criteria can be interchanged with diagnosis for asperges syndrome, borderline personality and histrionic disorder to name a few.
Okay, Anonymous, I get what you're saying. You're concerned that someone will label a person in their life as a sociopath and then do something to hurt them, or assume they cannot be helped when they might have a treatable illness.
It's a worthy caution. In my experience, after hundreds of people have written to me, people tend to err on the side of "niceness" and are far too prone to let themselves fall prey to sociopath manipulations. Almost everybody who writes to me is too hesitant to be strong and protect themselves. They've gotten themselves into serious trouble because they didn't understand that there was such a thing as an unempathetic human being.
But you have a good point. The other extreme is possible too and should be warned against. If the kid has a chance, for example, the parent should try to get psychiatric help for the him.
Much of this can be avoided if a person can be honest w/ themselves and look @ what it is that feels uncomfortable in dealings w/ another. All too often people get sucked in and are unwilling to really examine their feelings and take the necessary steps to avoid falling prey to manipulators.
Or are reluctant to get out.
Having a firm sense of who you are, good self worth/self esteem and being able to set boundaries are essential. Perhaps as has been said, the best way is to stay away.
The term "sociopath" was replaced by "Antisocial Personality Disorder." The stages of the latter are: Oppositional Defiance Disorder (ODD), Conduct Disorder (CD), and Antisocial Personality Disorder (APD). The children of APD parents would mirror the same disregard for rules and norms and would progress through the stages unless other influences disrupted identification with the APD parent(s). And yes, they would be likely to become APD.
A quote from elsewhere. Don't know if this is accurate or not. The kid is 13 and has been diagnosed by more than one therapist as ODD. He is currently on his 4th therapist.
I don't know how this fits in, but I suspect OCD as well, eg. 42 phone calls to his mom over 2.5 hrs. was the record. The ex, the kids dad was worse.
My agenda or reason for writing in the first place was to answer questions that I had after reading Ms. Stouts book.
The other was to find out what I should do, if the kid really does have APD or not I don't know. I certainly don't care to label someone w/ that if it's not deserving, thats for the experts. Reading though makes a person think about what is, and as such I start to wonder what I should do. Perhaps I'm looking for reasons to stay w/ her, perhaps i'm looking for the same to get out. I have told her that its best for me not to be around the kid ( I've tried many times ) but a relationship can only progress so far w/ that attitude. I also am reluctant to let my own kid(s) be exposed.
According to the mom, he has "always been hard to handle". So this isn't something totally new. I've said to her, that the influence of the dad is probably adding to the already messed up situation. The dad had told the kid on @ least 2 occasions he was going to kill himself. amongst alot of other things i.e. recruiting the kid into pitying him for this or that reason. when the mom told him to stop, because he was hurting the kid(s) his response (more than once ) was " I don't give a F."
So this is a jacked up situation. I really hate to leave and perhaps I am looking for hope that it will be better.
I recently ended a relationship with a man who I think was a sociopath. The breakup was painful for me as I learned what he was doing from a client of mine.
I am a successful professional who met a man 14 years my junior. We met in a professional setting and after 10 month he moved in with me. He left his wife of 10 years. since then he had filed for divorce and filed for bankruptcy.
Due to his job, he had to move out of state and against my better judgment, ontinued on with the relatinship. At Xmas time of 2008, he told me he was a sex addict and needed help. Again, against my better judgment told me I would support him.
Yo make a long story short, a client called me to tell me that he had been sleeping with a co-worker during the entire time of our relationship. That she was paying his bills. That they were also engaged in pornography and the list goes on. So, not only is he going through a contentious divorce, he is over $100K in debt due to credit cards. He is a sex addict and now loves 550 miles away.
I broke it off as he was obviously lying to me about evrything, a cheater, a sex addict who is going through a divorce and bankruptcy. To add insult to injury, the other woman called me to tell me all the bad things he said about me during our 3 year relationship.
One might say, "boy he did you a huge favor". And may be he did.
Although to the contrary, I am personally devastated. I feel as though everything was a lie and that I'm being thrown away like a rag doll. I know it does not make any sense.
But, if anyone has gone through this type of thing, any comments or words of wisdom would be most appreciated.
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